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Author Topic: TV Station Channel Brands After DTV Conversion?  (Read 2831 times)
Lkeller
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« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2009, 10:45:06 AM »

Of course, many (most?) music-formatted radio stations violate the legal ID rule once an hour - you *can* ignore FCC regulations and get away with it if nobody complains. 
At the risk of driving this thread off-topic, how are they ignoring the regs?  I don't recall listening to a station that consistently failed to identify ...

I don't think anybody is "ignoring" FCC regulations.  All the FCC requires is for stations to legally ID themselves at the top of the hour with call letters and city of license.  Obviously, radio stations must do this via voice announcement, but all TV stations have to do is flash their call letters and city of license on screen for a few seconds. 

Other than that, stations are allowed to brand themselves as anything they want, much as radio stations these days are "Star," "The Wave," "Kiss-FM" and so forth.  They try to be cute and get call letters that evoke their brand (KTWV for "The Wave," etc.), but they are not legally required to do so.

They are also not required to be exact about their frequency or dial postion.  Another radio example - "Power 106" in Los Angeles is KPWR - 105.9 FM.  As long as they say "KPWR, Los Angeles" once an hour at the top of the hour, they are in compliance with FCC regs.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 10:49:35 AM by Lkeller » Logged
w9wi
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« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2009, 12:49:57 PM »

At the risk of driving this thread off-topic, how are they ignoring the regs?  I don't recall listening to a station that consistently failed to identify ...

From 73.1201(a)(2), referring to when the ID announcement must be made:
Quote
(2) Hourly, as close to the hour as feasible, at a natural break in
program offerings.

Yet it is quite common to hear a station ID several minutes before or after the hour -- even though there are plenty of natural breaks between songs (or spots) where an ID could have been run.

6:57:39 is not "as close to the hour as feasible" if you're starting a set of four :30 spots at 6:59:30.
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Pab Sungenis
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« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2009, 12:56:41 PM »

What exactly are the rules for PSIP and virtual channel numbers when another station has a new station's frequency allotment as its remap?

For example, let's say I petition for, and get to build, a new public TV station in Southern New Jersey (to replace the 36 non-com allotment deleted during the transition)?  My engineers and I agree that of the three possible allotments that could conceivably be added to the market, my best bet is on Channel 3, and the FCC allots that channel to Vineland, NJ, as a non-com DTV station.

Now I have a dilemma.  I can't call the station "Channel 3" because KYW-DT already is 3.x, held over from their original analog channel.  What could we use as our virtual number?  13?  33?  (23 is already taken by WNJS-DT)  36?  Something completely different?

(And please spare me the perennial "low VHF is bad for DTV" discussion; I know that, I'm just looking for an explanation of how things like this would work out in the future.)
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Kent
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« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2009, 01:02:29 PM »

Well, I understand the new TV station at channel 10 in Memphis, if it's allowed to go on-air, will be mapping to 56.  It was originally supposed to be on 56 as analog, but that allotment was deleted as it wasn't built in time.  So, the original permittee is trying to get it licensed as a digital on 10, which is where it would have gone after the transition had it signed on in time.  Of course, they can't operate on 10 because WKNO is mapping to 10, which is its analog signal.
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tripinva
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« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2009, 04:09:54 PM »

Well, I understand the new TV station at channel 10 in Memphis, if it's allowed to go on-air, will be mapping to 56.  It was originally supposed to be on 56 as analog, but that allotment was deleted as it wasn't built in time.  So, the original permittee is trying to get it licensed as a digital on 10, which is where it would have gone after the transition had it signed on in time.  Of course, they can't operate on 10 because WKNO is mapping to 10, which is its analog signal.

Doesn't the same company own both WKNO and the new-DT on 10?  I imagine they'd do like KTCI/KTCA in Minneapolis will be doing, and map both of them to 10-x but with different minor channel numbers.  In Minneapolis, KTCA will be 2-1 and 2-2, and KTCI will be 2-3 and 2-4.  No reason they couldn't do the same in Memphis.

- Trip
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tripinva
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« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2009, 04:15:38 PM »

What exactly are the rules for PSIP and virtual channel numbers when another station has a new station's frequency allotment as its remap?

For example, let's say I petition for, and get to build, a new public TV station in Southern New Jersey (to replace the 36 non-com allotment deleted during the transition)?  My engineers and I agree that of the three possible allotments that could conceivably be added to the market, my best bet is on Channel 3, and the FCC allots that channel to Vineland, NJ, as a non-com DTV station.

Now I have a dilemma.  I can't call the station "Channel 3" because KYW-DT already is 3.x, held over from their original analog channel.  What could we use as our virtual number?  13?  33?  (23 is already taken by WNJS-DT)  36?  Something completely different?

(And please spare me the perennial "low VHF is bad for DTV" discussion; I know that, I'm just looking for an explanation of how things like this would work out in the future.)


Your station would map to 26-1.  If you operate on the frequency another station is mapping to, you map to that station's physical channel number.  In this case, 26.

- Trip
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tested
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« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2009, 08:24:43 PM »

I asked this question a while ago and never really got a good answer: in San Diego the new Fox affiliate is on analog channel 69 and digital channel 19.   They are on cable channel 5.  They ID themselves as Fox 5.  Would the FCC allow this station to map to 5.1 since there is no channel 5 in the San Diego market?  (there's a wikipedia entry saying that's exactly what will happen after the digital transition, but rabbitears.info says it's mapping to 69.1 right now) 
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landtuna
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« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2009, 08:53:28 PM »

The above posts are exactly the reason I continue to think the best and most understandable "channel branding" should be to follow the actual assigned frequency.  To do otherwise makes TV similar to what radio has become with meaningless brands like "Qxx", "Yxx", "Cool-FM" (when 'cool' is not KOOL), "Jack/Mike/etc.".

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Scott Fybush
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« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2009, 09:04:35 PM »

I asked this question a while ago and never really got a good answer: in San Diego the new Fox affiliate is on analog channel 69 and digital channel 19.   They are on cable channel 5.  They ID themselves as Fox 5.  Would the FCC allow this station to map to 5.1 since there is no channel 5 in the San Diego market?  (there's a wikipedia entry saying that's exactly what will happen after the digital transition, but rabbitears.info says it's mapping to 69.1 right now) 

According to the rules, no - and perhaps it would be useful here to provide a link to those rules and an explanation of why they're not widely understood, even among broadcasters.

The rules are contained in ATSC Standard A/65, the document that describes PSIP. You can read the whole thing here:

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_65cr1_with_amend_1.pdf

But it's very long, and very, very technical, and so you might just want to skip ahead to the meat, Annex B, on pages 90-91 of the PDF. It's titled "Additional Constraints on Virtual Channel Table For the U.S.," and here are the key bits:

Quote
1) For broadcasters with existing NTSC licenses, the major_channel_number for the existing
NTSC channels, as well as the digital virtual channels, controlled by the broadcaster,
shall be set to the current NTSC RF channel number. E.g., assume a broadcaster who has
an NTSC broadcast license for RF channel 13 is assigned RF channel 39 for digital
ATSC broadcast. That broadcaster is required to use major_channel_number 13 for
identification of the analog NTSC channel on RF channel 13, as well as the digital virtual
channels it is controlling on RF channel 39.
2) For a new broadcaster without an existing NTSC license, the major_channel_number for the
digital virtual channels controlled by the broadcaster shall be set to the FCC assigned RF
channel number for ATSC digital TV broadcast. E.g., assume a broadcaster who
currently has no NTSC broadcast license applies and receives a license for digital ATSC
broadcast on RF channel 49. That broadcaster is required to use major_channel_number 49
for identification of the digital virtual channels that it is controlling on RF channel 49.
3) If during or at the end of the transition period, the RF channel assigned to a broadcaster
for digital ATSC broadcast is changed for any reason, the major_channel_number used by
that broadcaster shall not change.
4) If, after the transition, a previously used NTSC RF channel in a market is assigned to a
newly-licensed DTV broadcaster in that market, the newly-licensed DTV broadcaster
shall use, as his major_channel_number, the number of the DTV RF channel originally
allocated to the previous NTSC licensee of the assigned channel.

(That last section is the reason a hypothetical new DTV 3 in Philadelphia would use 26.x as its major channel number, since KYW-TV, the previous NTSC occupant of 3, is on RF 26.)

So why do some broadcasters not get it? Possibly because ATSC Standard A/65 doesn't appear directly in the FCC rules. But it's still "incorporated by reference," and therefore carries the force of law, thanks to FCC rule 73.682(d):

Quote
(d) Digital broadcast television transmission standard. Effective May 29,
   2008 transmission of digital broadcast television (DTV) signals shall comply
   with the standards for such transmissions set forth in ATSC A/52: “ATSC
   Standard Digital Audio Compression (AC–3)” (incorporated by reference, see
    Sec. 73.8000), ATSC A/53, Parts 1–6: 2007 “ATSC Digital Television Standard,”
   (January  3,  2007),  except  for  section  6.1.2 (“Compression Format
   Constraints”) of A/53 Part 4: 2007 (“MPEG–2 Video Systems Characteristics”)
   and the phrase “see Table 6.2” in section 6.1.1 Table 6.1 and section 6.1.3
   Table 6.3 (incorporated by reference, see  Sec. 73.8000), and ATSC A/65C: “ATSC
   Program and System Information Protocol for Terrestrial Broadcast and Cable,
   Revision  C With Amendment No. 1 dated May 9, 2006,” (January 2, 2006)
   (incorporated by reference, see  Sec. 73.8000).

Does this mean the FCC will swoop down on KAIL for using 7 instead of 53 as its major channel number, or on KSWB for using 5 instead of 69? As with enforcement of any FCC rule...it depends. The Commission is phenomenally short-staffed, so its enforcement actions are usually limited to situations that either pose an immediate threat or that draw loud complaints from other licensees. (That's why pirate stations on FM tend to get busted only when licensed stations in the market make noise about it.)

The A/65 standard does give broadcasters a certain degree of leeway to alter major channel assignments as long as it's coordinated to prevent conflict within a market. That's how KTCA and KTCI in St. Paul can both use 2.x, for instance. So as long as nobody else in Fresno is bothered by KAIL using 7.x, or in San Diego by KSWB using 5.x, the FCC may decide it has better things to do with its time. (In the case of KSWB, there wouldn't even be a political issue with the other nearby 5.x, since KSWB is co-owned with KTLA in Los Angeles.)
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Scott Fybush
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« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2009, 09:39:50 PM »

The above posts are exactly the reason I continue to think the best and most understandable "channel branding" should be to follow the actual assigned frequency.  To do otherwise makes TV similar to what radio has become with meaningless brands like "Qxx", "Yxx", "Cool-FM" (when 'cool' is not KOOL), "Jack/Mike/etc.".

It sounds as though you'd approve of a radio station branding with its actual calls - KQQL, say, or WMKK, instead of "Cool" or "Mike." But there's nothing intrinsically more meaningful about "KQQL" than there is about "Cool." Both are essentially arbitrary identifiers for transmitters. So is "54457," which is how the FCC itself identifies the station in Anoka, Minnesota known on air as "Kool 108" and in its legal ID as "KQQL." (The FCC doesn't license the station as "107.9," either - it's licensed as "Channel 300C," yet another form of mapping.)

It's true that most of the station's listeners are indeed tuned in to 107.9 - but not all of them, and to those listening on-line, "kool108.com" is a much more descriptive, useful, and understandable brand than "54457," or "300C," or "KQQL, Anoka." This sort of multi-platform broadcasting is only going to get more common with increasing use of HD2 FM relays of AM signals, multi-station regional networks, radio stations on iPhones, etc.

In any event, you still haven't answered my questions from earlier in the thread:

1. How does your "brand by RF channel number" proposal account for the very real, and very serious, confusion that it would cause in places like Syracuse, where "channel 24" has been associated with PBS outlet WCNY for more than 40 years - but on 2/17/09, that channel will become occupied by NBC affiliate WSTM ("channel 3" since 1950), while WCNY-DT stays where it is now, on channel 25?

Again, here's the difference in how it plays out to viewers -

Your way: "The NBC shows you've been watching on channel 3 for 59 years are now on channel 54 if you have a digital tuner, but they're about to move to channel 24. But the PBS shows you've been watching on channel 24 since the network was called NET? They're now on 25. Oh, and CBS isn't on 5 anymore, it's on 47, and ABC's not on 9 anymore, it's on 17, and Fox isn't on 68, it's on 19."

Channel mapping: "Everything is exactly where you're accustomed to finding it - NBC on 3, PBS on 24, and so on."

2. You're not at all concerned about the inequity of some stations - say "channel 11" and "channel 13" in Baltimore - being able to keep the familiar brands they've used for 60 years, while the competition has to go from being "channel 2" to being "channel 38"?

Do keep in mind that the stations involved in all of this, who have already spent millions of dollars with no immediate return on investment, had little or no say in what DTV channels they were assigned.

To go back to the fast-food analogy someone was making earlier - it's the equivalent of the government dictating that Burger King can still sell Whoppers and Wendy's can still sell spicy chicken sandwiches, but McDonald's must replace the Big Mac with something called the "McGrub Deluxe." (It's still the same sandwich that used to be called the Big Mac, but the name has to change.)

3. Did you understand W9WI's explanation that even your old analog TV already does "channel mapping"? There is no "channel 21," per se. There's a standard, defined in the days of mechanical tuners, that says that for analog TV, "channel 21" is 512-518 MHz. With today's technology, "channel 21" already has multiple meanings - it's still 512-518 MHz on my UHF analog TV tuner, but it can just as well be 162-168 MHz on my analog cable tuner, or pretty much any frequency on the dial on my digital cable box or satellite receiver.

I don't need to know any of that to watch TV, and my cable company can remap "channel 21" anywhere else on the dial it needs to put it - the modern tuner does it for me, just as the old mechanical tuner in your analog TV doesn't make you know "512-518 MHz" to watch "channel 21."

Maybe this will make more sense: right now, your computer is connected to a server at the IP address 74.201.255.130. How do I know that? Because that happens (at least at the moment I'm typing it) to be the actual ("physical," if you will) IP address of radio-info.com, pointing to a specific server in some server farm somewhere.

I don't need to memorize that meaningless string of numbers, and the operators of radio-info.com can move the site to any other server with any other IP address that's convenient for them, because there's a "mapping" process going on behind the scenes that tells your browser where it really needs to go when you type in "radio-info.com."

Would you really prefer that this site brand itself as "74.201.255.130"? Because that's essentially the same thing as forcing digital TV broadcasters to brand with an RF channel number that's both meaningless and potentially subject to change as technology keeps evolving.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 09:41:38 PM by Scott Fybush » Logged

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