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Author Topic: How is IBOC destroying AM DX?  (Read 1274 times)
louisNatl
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« on: July 16, 2007, 08:55:55 AM »

I enjoy listening to AM distant signals.  As a fan of talk radio, we only have one full time talk radio station in Atlanta (WSB) and the others reduce their power so low at night that the signal is not received in most of the area.  So, I rely on distant signals for my favorite programs such as Coast To Coast.  I also enjoy HD FM radio because of the good quality sound.  I have never heard HD AM because the two rimshot stations here stopped broadcasting.  However, every review that I have read about it give it high marks as potential for music and higher quality programming to return to AM.  Since AM stations are allowed to broadcast at night, I have not noticed any degrading of the distant signals that I normally receive (WHAS, WLAC, KMOX, etc.).  I have noticed that WLS is barely audible but that seems to be due to interference with a Mexican station. 

I decided to post here because the HD Radio board is filled with members stating their personal biases against the technology rather than documenting physics or any actual proof of interference.  I would like to know if someone actually has documented findings that HD radio interferes with adjacent frequencies.  I would think that the HD technology would make the 50,000 clear channel stations even stronger at night but I am not a physics expert.
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BobOnTheJob
Indiana's Circuit Ridin' Radio Engineer
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2007, 09:59:34 AM »

I would think that the HD technology would make the 50,000 clear channel stations even stronger at night but I am not a physics expert.

Let's look at how IBOC works...it transmits it's AM component on neighboring frequencies. It's at relatively low power, but relatively low power compared to 50,000 watts is still a thousand watts or more. Take WLW and WOR for example. Unless the rules have been relaxed, there are no nightime signals on either of those frequencies within 750 miles at any power. In the FCC eyes, even a couple of watts on 700khz at 500 miles would create unacceptable interference. Why, then, do they allow 1000 watts on 700 from WOR?Huh

As far as a documented case of interference, I live 80 miles from WHAS 840. A few months ago, someone had their IBOC turned on on 850 a couple of hours before sunrise. I never was able to identify who it was as the IBOC hiss was more audible on 840 & 860 than the jumble of analog signals on 850. At 80 miles, it did not make WHAS unlistenable, but it did add enough hiss to it that I thought I was listening to a very weak signal...until I investigated & found out that IBOC was the source. That's 1 IBOC signal...imagine what happens to WHAS 840 when WCCO 830 & KOA 850 BOTH start adding their hiss generators to the mix. If every station were to embrace IBOC on AM at night, it's my opinion that the perception of AM radio being "full of noise & static" will be greatly reinforced. The FCC staff who allowed this should all be removed from office & replaced with passionate terrestrial radio users. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that these commissioners get in their Cadillacs & turn on XM when they leave work...
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When I started in radio in 1967, most broadcast equipment used tube technology, all recorded music was played from records on a turntable by live DJ's, there was no satellite delivery...and radio was fun.
louisNatl
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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2007, 10:37:51 AM »

That's a good explanation.  Is there any way that the AM stations can transmit IBOC without leaking on to adjacent frequencies?  Otherwise, wouldn't this violate FCC rules since stations like WHAS are guaranteed large contours?  Apparently, there was a white paper (sorry, I don't have the source) that explained how IBOC was engineered on FM to not interfere with adjacent channels but did not mention AM.
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BobOnTheJob
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2007, 11:33:18 AM »

It trashes FM too and it's easy to see if you have an analog tuner with a tuning meter. Say you have a local station on 106.9. Tune your receiver to 107.1 and 106.7. The signal meter should drop to almost zero with no IBOC. Depending on your distance from the local station, you'll see anywhere from a small reading to almost full signal on the meter. There are many tuners capable of selecting an adjacent channel with little or no interference. The McIntosh MR-78 is an example. The signals that were once on the adjacent channels are now buried in hiss. For whatever reason, everyone talks about the guaranteed AM carnage, but little mention is made to the FM band.

Example...96.7/Madison,IN formerly was crystal clear on I-275 in northern KY. When 96.5/Lebanon,OH signed on with IBOC, 96.7 went from a listenable signal to 100% hiss at less than 40 miles. Their stereo signal at 24 miles now has hiss in it that will force listeners to switch to mono if they know to, know how or are able to. In the real world, Madison on 96.7 will lose a listener each time this happens, making the station less valuable. And they call this progress...
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When I started in radio in 1967, most broadcast equipment used tube technology, all recorded music was played from records on a turntable by live DJ's, there was no satellite delivery...and radio was fun.
PocketRadio
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2007, 12:35:09 PM »

“The FCC Tunes Into HD Radio–And May Turn Off Distant AM”

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward/2007/03/the_fcc_greenlights_hd_radio_n.html

“RW Opinion: Rethinking AM’s future”

“Making AM-HD work well as a long-term investment is seen as an expensive and risky challenge for most stations and their owners. There is the significant downside of potential new interference to some of their own AM analog listeners as well as listeners of adjacent-channel stations.”

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0044/t.557.html
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rbrucecarter5
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2007, 02:23:46 PM »

I would like to know if someone actually has documented findings that HD radio interferes with adjacent frequencies.  I would think that the HD technology would make the 50,000 clear channel stations even stronger at night but I am not a physics expert.

Happy to oblige! 

Since AM is still not authorized for nighttime operation, daytime is the only example of interference except for those occasions when it was being tested at night, or somebody got careless.

Case 1:  KKLF 1700 interferes with local TIS station on 1680 from DFW airport, making it difficult for airport travellers to get gate information.
Case 2:  KLIF 570 interferes with KLBJ 590 Austin in the Dallas / Ft. Worth area.  KLBJ is a blowtorch, giving local signal quality in the DFW area.
Case 3:  WOAI 1200 interferes with KFXR 1190 Dallas near sunrise and sunset - producing an audible increase in noise.
Case 4:  KLIF 570 sidebands produce noticable noise on KLVI 560 in Houston.  KLVI, although licensed to Beaumont, is listed as a Houston local and shows up in their ratings.  KLIF noise is especially strong in northern suburban areas of the Woodlands and Conroe.

In spite of reduced power on the sidebands, the nature of the modulation makes them much more robust than the analog signal.  Just as the carrier is much more robust than modulation (transatlantic heterodynes are relatively common, while actual reception rare).  In careful DX tests I have performed, I have received digital sideband pairs from stations so distant that the analog modulation is not even detectable.  Sidebands from stations like KOA, KMKI, WOAI are clearly audible 300 miles from the station, obliterating semi-locals even 300 miles away (a 630 in Lovington, NM is no longer receivable in Lubbock, an 860 from Hereford is no longer audible in Dumas to Amarillo on US 87.)

All in all, I would say that the situation before was one where the first adjacent is difficult to listen to when a station runs 10 kHz bandwidth audio.  But that would make the effective bandwidth only +/-30 kHz under worst case circumstances.  And - outside of the city grade signal contours, the extended frequency response seldom caused any problems, because most musical and speech energy is below 5 khz anyway.  When a station goes IBOC, the 5 to 10 kHz sidebands are equal in amplitude and translated down to 0 to 5 kHz on the first adjacent frequency.  On the second adjacent frequency, they mix with the 10 to 15 kHz sidebands to create primarily high frequency hiss from 5 to 15 kHz.  First and second adjacents are VERY unpleasant to listen to!!! Much, but not all, of the second adjacent hiss can be mitigated with an extremely narrow IF - the type that used to be common in AM radios before the advent of single IC / single ceramic filter designs. 

More recent AM radio designs use a single, really cheap ceramic filter which does not have much stop band rejection.  Therefore, the radio is wideband by its nature and the 10 to 15 kHz sidebands are clearly audible even if the radio is tuned carefully to center frequency.  Even a little off frequency, that the phase modulated 5 to 10 kHz sidebands become amplitude modulation and their contribution to the audio is considerable.  Given poor mechanical design and poor mechanical lash of most tuning mechanisms, the average listener will be subjected to this noise.
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DavidEduardo
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2007, 04:14:18 PM »

Case 4:  KLIF 570 sidebands produce noticable noise on KLVI 560 in Houston.  KLVI, although licensed to Beaumont, is listed as a Houston local and shows up in their ratings.  KLIF noise is especially strong in northern suburban areas of the Woodlands and Conroe.

KLVI is listed by who as a Houston local? Not by Arbitron, particularly since KLVI does not show up in the Houston ratings... and I just checked the last 5 weeks of PPM to be sure.
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“Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.”  Winston Churchill. The chronicles of radio, www.americanradiohistory.com where you will find an assortment of broadcast publications and magazines from the 20's through the early 80's and ratings data from 1997-2009.
DavidEduardo
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2007, 04:30:17 PM »

Case 4:  KLIF 570 sidebands produce noticable noise on KLVI 560 in Houston.  KLVI, although licensed to Beaumont, is listed as a Houston local and shows up in their ratings.  KLIF noise is especially strong in northern suburban areas of the Woodlands and Conroe.

KLVI is listed by who as a Houston local? Not by Arbitron, particularly since KLVI does not show up in the Houston ratings... and I just checked the last 5 weeks of PPM to be sure.

And...

..in the event someone says, "well, sure, that's because HD makes that impossible," I went back several years and see that KLVI gets a share of 0.0 all through 2005 in the Houston MSA... and considering that Liberty and Chambers counties are in the HOuston Arbitron market, that means that even in counties adjacent to the home market for KLVI, nobody was listening anyway.
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“Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.”  Winston Churchill. The chronicles of radio, www.americanradiohistory.com where you will find an assortment of broadcast publications and magazines from the 20's through the early 80's and ratings data from 1997-2009.
MarcB
The Master of Disaster
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2007, 08:43:29 PM »

Case 1:  KKLF 1700 interferes with local TIS station on 1680 from DFW airport, making it difficult for airport travellers to get gate information.

Are you kidding me? How many people actually use that? I'll bet slim to none. Further more I have friends of all ages from my age (25) all the  way up to people in their 60s and none listen to those T.I.S. stations that are on the highways to announce where construction zone/accidents are. Most of them will use the traffic reports from their favorite radio stations. A ver small percentage don't care about traffic conditions.
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Big Marc in Connecticut
The Dude
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2007, 10:01:55 PM »

IBOC is devistating to the AM band!!!

The other night some station around 910 left thier IBOC up all night and all i heard was hash mixed in with the stations (I couldnt make anything out)

Sad
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