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Author Topic: ABC CITADEL AM STATIONS SUSPEND NIGHTTIME IBOC  (Read 12188 times)
OKCRadioGuy
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« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2007, 10:51:46 PM »

Hey Doctor Z!

Nice of hear from you after all those silly Dodge commericals!  What an honor!  Dr. Z right here on our little 'ol board here...

(kidding)

It's good yah?

 Cheesy

I'm sure glad to see ABC/Cit. doing the right thing and turning off the interference generators at night.  Looks like it's time to consider doing what should have been done before and move AM's digital to 26MHz.

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"Radio is finished as we know it. But that doesn't seem to matter to people in radio. They talk a big game... The guys that run radio are these big people and they regard themselves as big people... I laugh because they are big in their own minds." - Cramer
clouseau
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Gamefully Employed Radio Professional


« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2007, 10:58:21 PM »

  Dear Clouseau -
 
    I know what I wrote. It's putrid, churlish, adolescent, not to mention bilious, disjoint, rambling, and as well, crepuscular. Without fail, the drivel I belch-up never fails to horrify me upon subsequent readings. So, uh, why you parrot selected silly words?
Because words mean things and reflect upon creditability. And we love yours.  Smiley   Really we do...
     
Quote
Is that the best you can do? Aw, you need to get more fun out of life.

Here's a thought.  Why do "I" need more fun. I'm happy just "Hangin' out" here.

Quote
  'Within five years, people won't ask for an HD radio, sez an iBLOC cheasze, 'all radios will be HD'. Wow! Whew! Mustn't judge too harshly, though, at least he has it half right!

Defining what you are trying to say is FAR more challenging than the NYT crossword.

THAT'S why we love you.  Smiley

Clouseau
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Radio is a mass medium.  It plays what the most people want to hear.  If you don't like what is on, vote with the tuning knob.
hipporadio
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« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2007, 11:00:40 PM »

...Listeners won't discard analog sets for HD. They say there's nothing in it for them. And yes, despite absurd, vehement, overblown denials, citizens know jamming when they hear it.

KronyKasters, hire back the talent you so callously fired during your gluttonous 90s buying binge. Perhaps they'll still have you. Air compelling programs. Listeners may yet return.

More 'work' on iBLOC?...  Fix what?  The HD gang pig-sawed digital 'wings' onto good clean analog signals. The problem wasn't modulation. It was content - or lack thereof...

Dr. Paul Vincent Zecchino
Manasota Key, Florida
02 October, 2007

MEGA-DITTOS!!!  That was DELICIOUS, Doctor!

...And I thought [according to the “HD Radio” enthusiasts]; ONLY “Low power broadcasters, DXers, and a few webcasters” – plus guys with “old analog handsWink read, posted, and disliked IBOC here.  Then there’s Dr. Z, and what is he?  OH [I forgot] – ANGRY and BITTER Roll Eyes

[btw]... THANKS CITADEL!!!  I can hear WSB again! ...From ONE state over!  Sounds like a BIG-TIME DX to me Cheesy
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Savage
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« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2007, 05:57:53 AM »

"If the night problems with HD (AM) are not resolved....it does not bode well for AM??"

The night problems with HD CAN'T be resolved, unless the NAB/iBiquity propose to revise the laws of physics.
Propagation characteristics of medium wave are not subject to legislative action or engineering upgrades.  Noise is noise and interference is interference.  Any competent engineer knows that a piece of equipment showing only a 28 db suppression of noise is what you'd call "a malfunctioning piece of equipment." 

If the injection level for digital is lowered to reduce interference, it will further compromise the ability of receivers to lock onto HD.  It barely works as it is; some 50kw IBOC-AM stations are producing reliable HD locks on home receivers extending barely 15 miles.  If you increase the digital, the analog interference increases.  The analog bandwidth has already been reduced to a barely-acceptable level (some would argue it's gone too far already) so more bandwidth can't be "borrowed" from analog. 

Citadel has diplomatically said the HD night shutoff has been made while "iBiquity works on reducing adjacent-channel interference" which is akin to "you must now....cut down the tallest tree in the forest.....WITH A HERRING!!!" Monty-Python style.  If it was as simple as tinkering with the system this would have been done before nighttime HD was tried.  The September 14th Experiment was just a desperate, hail-Mary attempt to conclusively answer the question to which everyone (with any sense) already knew the answer: "Hey, maybe the interference won't be as bad as everyone predicts!"

Gee.  Heap big surprise.  It's actually WORSE.
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Cal Stymes
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« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2007, 06:00:02 AM »

Well, finally somebody woke up!  My congratulations to the engineering moguls at ABC-Citadel who have gone out on a limb and said to the cartel, "enough is enough" (at least for now).

musiconradio.com asked:

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does AM just quietly fade into the sunset?

Gosh I hope so!  Only time will tell.

DavidEduardo suggested:

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If the night problems with HD are not resolved, many owners who were hoping for an AM resurgence will be more motivated to sell and dedicate efforts to FM and newer media. It does not bode well for AM.

Nonsense.  David, I think you and those "hoping owners" have been drinking the iBiquity koolaid for a bit too long.  AM will go on just fine without all that analog interference.  Are you going to tell me that you have finally admitted that there are problems?  This AM HD system should never have seen the light of day.  It is not nice to raise the hopes of people when that hope is based on a bad system.  Everyone knew what would happen when these noise generators got lit up at night.  The broadcasting industry was sold a bill of goods.  But the engineers all knew this and kept their mouths shut because the corporate types have too much money and pride in this invested.  This is going to end up being a big problem for iBiquity.  All I can say is that they'd better get that IPO going before everybody finally figures it out!  Right about now I think its CEO is wincing just a bit.

But best of all, dumber than a box of hair intoned:

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Every engineer I knew said repeatedly, before the 9/14 effective date for nighttime operation, that whether or not nighttime HD really works would be proven in the next few months, as more stations turn it on at night.  The postings I've seen stating that many stations have it on intermittently shows me that they're experimenting.

Indeed they are.  But dumber, you are an engineer (and a good one at that!).  You must have known what so many of us were saying which was that night time implementation of AM IBOC would be, well, "challenging" at the very best.  My goodness this isn't rocket science.  Hopefully, everybody who jumped on this bandwagon will take a good hard look at it, realize that it can never work well as it is presently engineered and abandon it.

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Citadel is most likely dealing with, at least, two of their stations engaging in "mutually assured destruction" (WJR and WABC on first adjacents to each other) at night, so this is not a complete surprise.

Which just goes to show that truth can definitely be stranger than fiction.  You can't make this stuff up!  Cheesy

Quote
It also wouldn't surprise me if CBS follows suit, seeing that they have three stations within 20 kHz of each other (WINS, KDKA and WBZ).

Gosh, now wouldn't THAT be a hoot!  To all the staunch supporters of the AM HD system on this here message board (including my buddy R.F.), you are being very quiet!  No doubt we would all like to hear what you think now.

Oh that's right.  People like me made this board a joke and you folks are taking a break.  I'm sorry, Lino.  I'll try and be a better person in the future.
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JohnnyElectron
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« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2007, 08:23:02 AM »

Don't you just hate it when Leonard Kahn is right on something?

I'm really curious to see how his system holds up at night-time?  Does anybody know?
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vsa
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« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2007, 08:54:33 AM »

Don't you just hate it when Leonard Kahn is right on something?

I'm really curious to see how his system holds up at night-time?  Does anybody know?

According to Leonard Kahn:

"...we guarantee you will be the best sounding and loudest station when you tune into your station with a normal car radio. And you will at least Double your day and night coverage..."

http://www.wrathofkahn.org/

I'd say that's a claim worth investigating.


« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 08:57:42 AM by vsa » Logged
Savage
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« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2007, 09:19:45 AM »

Let me tell you guys something.

I know that belief in some of Leonard Kahn's stuff strikes many people, especially latter-day engineers, as being like belief in those deer-repellent whistles you glue on your car (which also apparently repel lions, baboons, pterodactyls and Bob Struble, since I haven't hit any those with my car recently either) but then there's the curious thing about Leonard's SymmetraPeak.

I'll be darned if the thing doesn't actually work.
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LinoNYC
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« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2007, 10:22:48 AM »

So I guess the question is in 5 years when HD on FM goes mainstream or not(Just a guess) does AM just quietly fade into the sunset. Yes I love to DX too, but with more talk shows moving to FM, and AM quality getting worse, it is getting harder to be loyal to the AM band. For those who who are glad that nightime HD has been tabled, what solutions do you propose to clean up nighttime IBOC.

Well, yesterday we saw a sports AM in Detroit migrate to FM, so as this trend picks up, motivated by attracting more salable demos, AM will be left with religious, niche and ethnic stations.

If the night problems with HD are not resolved, many owners wo were hoping for an AM resurgence will be more motivated to sell and dedicate efforts to FM and newer media. It does not bode well for AM.

I'am glad to see someone of stature make this point.  Amid all the gloating over what is probably a temporary setback which BTW affects only night operation on one select group of stations there seems to be a mass denial over what is actually happening to AM radio in the USA and most other countries for that matter.

Most of these people seem to ignore the water rising in their own backyards.  I'll repeat a point: Here in market #1, with one exception, all of the sub-50K AM's are either religion, leased, or for the lucky ones, ethnic. some of the latter may actually have atleast a small listenership.

Three of the 50K's are vanity.  All of the Am's have looming demographic problems.

Some here talk of "drinking the coolaid" -yet one could easily guess that their idea of an AM "solution" is patch-in the EMT, dust off the Audimax-es hire some pace jocks and exhume the career of Bill Drake just keep the faith Johnny and all will be well.

Reality: all AMs, even the currently sucessfull ones are on shaky ground and probably won't make the next decade in their current form.

It's true that AM may seem like a desparate, terminal patient going from one quack treatment to another (like the ones on your AM doc block infomercials) but the reality is that these owners can read the data and know what is happening to their investment.

"sage" Cal Stymes expostulated:

Quote
Gosh, now wouldn't THAT be a hoot!  To all the staunch supporters of the AM HD system on this here message board (including my buddy R.F.), you are being very quiet!  No doubt we would all like to hear what you think now.

Oh that's right.  People like me made this board a joke and you folks are taking a break.  I'm sorry, Lino.  I'll try and be a better person in the future.

Again, don't break out the pinatas (and Geritol) this pertains to only certain stations. The realities that led to this haven't changed,  pressure is still on to find a solution to AM's "dimming flame".

Heckle-on bro....

Lino
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k2pg
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« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2007, 11:09:26 AM »


Reality: all AMs, even the currently sucessfull ones are on shaky ground and probably won't make the next decade in their current form.

Probably the best thing for AM, at least in the smaller markets, would be to apply the Canadian Solution. Move them to the FM band! To make room, all FM translators should be delicensed and shut down and the FM spacing rules could probably be revised to allow stations on second-adjacent channels in the same market. This situation already exists in the noncommercial band (88-92 MHz) in New Jersey and the New York metropolitan area.

Perhaps a few AM frequencies could be kept active with 50, 100, or even 500 kW flamethrowers to cover "white areas" of the country that are too sparsely populated to support local FM stations. With congestion relieved, the analog bandwidth could be opened up a little...although the receivers would need to be improved. (The GE Superradio was an excellent AM receiver.) Of course, programming would have to be improved. People don't want to hear a steady diet of syndicated talk, infomercials for cure-all laxatives and dubious real estate deals, and those hellfire and brimstone preachers who smile sweetly while conning lonely old ladies out of their life savings. Even if AM IBOC worked well, I certainly wouldn't buy an expensive new radio to hear this crap! (And, no, I will never forgive Michael Bloomberg for killing my beloved WNEW, nor will I forgive the suits at Westwood One for making WNEW, a New York institution, gravely ill!)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 11:11:36 AM by k2pg » Logged
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