Time to reconsider AM stereo?

[HowardMBurgers]

Leonard Kahn's system was better than CQUAM, but the modern world is not inclined to reward individual creativity,
preferring to reward that which is created by large corporate entities.

I say it was better because upper/lower sideband split is more robust and fully backward compatible.

I kept my eyes open to buy an AM stereo, but they never ever did appear on any shelves of stores.

If the internet had existed or some other way to locate them, I WOULD have bought one.
I asked around, but it was truly under the radar of all the marketers.
Still don't have one, but I'd be ready to modify some of my radios to achieve it.

Stereo's not one of my priorities.  I listen to my music in glorious mono.  I'd rather have high-quality wideband audio than stereo.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but as David correctly pointed out, Leonard Kahn's various filings of lawsuits was yet another nail in the coffin of AM stereo.

I remember quite well a conversation with Leonard while he was setting up a brand new test ISB AM stereo exciter at a station I worked at in 1977.  The wars of words between the CQUAM camps and Leonard were heating up.  While discussing it over a cup of coffee, I asked the question whether Leonard would he'd be better off just working a deal with a manufacturer such as Harris or whomever in the interest of going against Motorola, rather than taking them on as an individual.  You would have thought I had just stabbed Leonard in the neck.  He got really angry and defensive with even the suggestion.  Clearly history has shown that Mr. Kahn was not a smart businessman. 

Whereas for the time, I completely agree that Leonard was a smart inventor.  The problem was all his tilting at windmills was a major reason AM stereo never got traction.

[rbrucecarter5]

The wars of words between the CQUAM camps and Leonard were heating up.  

Whereas for the time, I completely agree that Leonard was a smart inventor.  The problem was all his tilting at windmills was a major reason AM stereo never got traction.

Finally someone says it - I think Leonard Kahn and his lawsuits were a big part of the reason why AM stereo died.  There was a crucial window of opportunity - before talk radio really took hold - when a concerted effort to get AM stereo mandated on all new receivers might have saved the band for music.  By the time the uncertainty with formats was resolved in favor of C-Quam, it was too late.  FM had continued to gain, and talk radio was entering its own. 

What was needed was a concerted effort by broadcasters of the time to push the system in a united front.  They learned their lesson with HD, but it is a defective system compared to C-Quam, and the window of opportunity was almost 30 years.

[Cal Stymes]

Tom Wells thusly spake:

Leonard Kahn's system was better than CQUAM, but the modern world is not inclined to reward individual creativity,
preferring to reward that which is created by large corporate entities.

Now ain't that the truth?

Leonard Kahn is the whipping boy that everyone just loves to bash and on whom everyone blames all of AM radio's current ills and woes because of his law suit.  Well I guess someone has to be a target so it might as well be him, yes?  Never mind whether or not the suit and his engineering had merit.

Now that is what iBiquity's arguments were when it was challenged by the boys who ended up putting their marbles into FMeXtra, eh?  A simple buyout to suppress sufficed then.  Why couldn't Motorola have thought of that when Kahn was making engineering sense?  Then the issue (and his suit) might never have occurred, the FCC would have approved CQUAM, Leonard would not have become the industry's whipping boy and we would have had the kind of garbage with AM stereo that we have today with HD Radio, but perhaps not quite as bad.

But back to Tom's original comment, how about getting some decent and advanced engineering smarts at the FCC and cut out the political crap which only serves to reinforce the continued big corporate manipulation of the marketplace?  It is not as if the problems with IBOC could not have been predicted by physics, yet the FCC keeps approving iBiquity's requests.

Awful?  Yes.  Astonishing?  Not in today's world.  Very very sad.

[Play Freebird]

Whereas for the time, I completely agree that Leonard was a smart inventor.  The problem was all his tilting at windmills was a major reason AM stereo never got traction.

I'm sure a major part of the problem was Leonard's frustration with the FCC.   The application for his first AM stereo patent was actually filed back in February 1960 and he tried to gain regulatory approval shortly thereafter, but the FCC refused to act on his request for nearly 20 years.  As usual, the big companies like Motorola, Harris, Philips, and RCA jumped in with their competing systems, and through their money and political influence were successful in getting the Commission's attention. 
 
Mexico approved Kahn's system much earlier, it was on the air at XETRA 690 in the '60s.   

Here's the link to Kahn's informative 1960 patent document:
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=6jphAAAAEBAJ&dq=3218393

[HowardMBurgers]

Why couldn't Motorola have thought of that when Kahn was making engineering sense?  Then the issue (and his suit) might never have occurred, the FCC would have approved CQUAM, Leonard would not have become the industry's whipping boy and we would have had the kind of garbage with AM stereo that we have today with HD Radio, but perhaps not quite as bad.

Leonard did it to himself.  Coming off as an annoying crackpot by filing pointless lawsuits, combined with not acting in a business-like manner whenever he was asked an opinion, ruined whatever credibility he had to the FCC and the other manufacturers.  In the end all that happenned was he became part of sabotaging AM stereo as a whole and his lawyer probably bought a new nice boat.

But back to Tom's original comment, how about getting some decent and advanced engineering smarts at the FCC and cut out the political crap which only serves to reinforce the continued big corporate manipulation of the marketplace? 

Yeah, good luck with that.  The FCC has few qualified engineers anymore.  They rely on the private sector to tell the politicans what works and what doesn't.

[DavidEduardo]

[Mexico approved Kahn's system much earlier, it was on the air at XETRA 690 in the '60s.   

Mexico did not approve the system. They approved experimental transmission limited to that one station. As many who heard it recall, the separation was only slightly better than that of the "put your AM radio to the left of you and your FM to the right" experiments (or gimmicks) of the period.

Similarly, Mexico has approved on a temporary basis the use of HD by Mexican stations on the US border. Since Mexico is in the process of trying to move all AMs off the band, this would principally affect FM broadcasters in the long run.

[landtuna]

As many who heard it recall, the separation was only slightly better than that of the "put your AM radio to the left of you and your FM to the right" experiments (or gimmicks) of the period.

I don't recall using any FM's but do remember an experiment on KTKT and, I believe, KAIR (both mono AM's) of the late 50's where they broadcast one channel on each station.  I remember listening to it but not really impressed.

[badjef]

Leonard Kahn's system was better than CQUAM, but the modern world is not inclined to reward individual creativity,
preferring to reward that which is created by large corporate entities.
I say it was better because upper/lower sideband split is more robust and fully backward compatible.
I kept my eyes open to buy an AM stereo, but they never ever did appear on any shelves of stores.
If the internet had existed or some other way to locate them, I WOULD have bought one.
I asked around, but it was truly under the radar of all the marketers.
Still don't have one, but I'd be ready to modify some of my radios to achieve it.

Stereo's not one of my priorities.  I listen to my music in glorious mono.  I'd rather have high-quality wideband audio than stereo.

Merry Christmas! Happy to find another Kahn supporter. It was available as an "add-on" which is how I was able to record it in my '87 Toyota. The Sony STF-A100 was the only receiver with the decoding built in and it was pulled off the market with a Candygram from Motorola to "cease and desist" any manufacturing of AM Stereo radios other than c-Quam.

That was your "marketplace decision."

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

[Cal Stymes]

HowardMBurgers reiterated:

Quote from: Cal Stymes on December 24, 2009, 10:12:58 AM:

Why couldn't Motorola have thought of that when Kahn was making engineering sense?  Then the issue (and his suit) might never have occurred, the FCC would have approved CQUAM, Leonard would not have become the industry's whipping boy and we would have had the kind of garbage with AM stereo that we have today with HD Radio, but perhaps not quite as bad.

Leonard did it to himself.  Coming off as an annoying crackpot by filing pointless lawsuits, combined with not acting in a business-like manner whenever he was asked an opinion, ruined whatever credibility he had to the FCC and the other manufacturers.  In the end all that happened was he became part of sabotaging AM stereo as a whole and his lawyer probably bought a new nice boat.

But my point is, Mr. Kahn keeps getting blamed for starting the "death" of AM.  To this day we raise his name in vain, and for what purpose?  How does this help us eliminate the adjacent channel AM interference being caused by IBOC?  The man was clearly brilliant and the world wasn't ready for him.  He also had absolutely nothing to do with the invention of IBOC.  It was and is not his fault that the modern world is not inclined to reward individual creativity, then or now.

Quote from: Cal Stymes on December 24, 2009, 10:12:58 AM:

But back to Tom's original comment, how about getting some decent and advanced engineering smarts at the FCC and cut out the political crap which only serves to reinforce the continued big corporate manipulation of the marketplace?

Yeah, good luck with that.  The FCC has few qualified engineers anymore.  They rely on the private sector to tell the politicans what works and what doesn't.

I am suggesting that our federal regulatory agencies should act more responsibly.  You are saying that is not going to happen and I already know that.  My (and Tom's) underlying point is that it's horrible the broadcast industry is being regulated by a federal agency that no longer understands the science of what it is regulating and that corporate greed most always gets the nod.

It's as simple as that.  The FCC is no longer functioning in the public interest and while this only represents a microcosm of what is happening in our society as a whole, it is still a very BIG problem.

[TheBigA]

My (and Tom's) underlying point is that it's horrible the broadcast industry is being regulated by a federal agency that no longer understands the science of what it is regulating and that corporate greed most always gets the nod.

No one gives them a nod.  The difference is that in the vacuum that exists in broadcast regulation, radio companies simply do what they want.  They don't need permission.  They are licensees.  If I have a license to drive, I don't need to ask the DMV permission every time I get in the car.

As for the FCC operating in the public interest, we've had more than 16 years where the general feeling was the government that governs least governs best.  That is the public interest as defined by the voters.  Any time the government attempts to take action, it gets mired in political agendas.  The FCC has been unable to get any kind of consensus on anything related to broadcasting, except with regards to indecency.   Couple that with 25 years of budget cuts, and you end up with our current situation.