Time to reconsider AM stereo?

[Cal Stymes]

My friend, DavidEduardo informed us all of this little tidbit:

There are all kinds of very scary and kookie DXers out there insulting, writing nast e-mails and even writing letters to one's supposed "boss" about HD (one of my staff members got several of these, complaining about me!)

Now that is quite possibly the funniest thing you have ever written on a message board, David.  So you actually do have a sense of humor!  You were joking, right?  Right, David?  Right?

Yes those DXers are awfully scary and kookie.  If I were you, I would stay as far away from them all as I can possibly get.  You never know when one of these kookie DXers are going to load up those HD radios with gunpowder and remotely set them up to explode in a dirt pile somewhere.  If you were walking by that dirt pile at the time the HD radios exploded, then it would be all over, eh?

[audioguy]

Yeah, heaven forbid that some kid might listen to an out-of-market station at night and turn into one of those "kooky and scary DX'ers", and then get interested enough in radio to seek a career in the industry... as I did!

[badjef]

Yeah, heaven forbid that some kid might listen to an out-of-market station at night and turn into one of those "kooky and scary DX'ers", and then get interested enough in radio to seek a career in the industry... as I did!

...and that kooky dial position CKLW was able to have in NJ during the 60's when I was growing up!

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

[HowardMBurgers]

The sad reality is that station owners are no longer in the position to have, nor care about 'blowtorch' AM or clear channel stations anymore.  Having a signal that reached well outside the market was mainly for bragging rights or novelty, but now with the continuing slide of AM listening, especially with those under 50, the cost to build or maintain even a 5kW directional AM doesn't pencil out.  Owners want to cover the market where their advertisers reside, and could rightfully care less whether you five hundred miles away can hear them or not.

Chances are the large areas of land the AM transmitter site is built on is now more valuable than the radio station itself.  This is especially the case with the cost of utility, tower maintenance, and updating the facility over the long haul.

I know there are a lot of you who think the demise of AM DXing is being somehow accelerated by IBOC.  I would argue however, that between all the noise being generated by consumer devices, the lack of original programming in which to listen, combined with significant band congestion, the AM band is pretty much going to meet it's demise by simply becoming old and with increasingly less valuable as a business to owners.
 

[DavidEduardo]

Chances are the large areas of land the AM transmitter site is built on is now more valuable than the radio station itself.  This is especially the case with the cost of utility, tower maintenance, and updating the facility over the long haul.

A good case is the former WGMS in DC on 570.

The station was so committed to its classical format that it was the only RKO market that did not put a Bill Drake consulted Top 40 format on the air in the 60's.

But its transmitter land became so valuable that they, more recently, sold it when the price was right. The proceed built a new site, farther outside the District, and left a lot of money over after all was done.

As the real estate market improves, we will find more and more AMs that can't make much money cashing in the land value. Or, as some have already done, going from, let's say, 5 kw day 1 kw night, separate patterns to 2.2 kw non directional day, 180 watts non directional nights... acre or two of land (probably closer inside the market) and you can build it anywhere. The directional might need 6 to 10 acres, strategically placed to aim the signal.

[DavidEduardo]

There are all kinds of very scary and kookie DXers out there insulting, writing nasty e-mails and even writing letters to one's supposed "boss" about HD (one of my staff members got several of these, complaining about me!)

Now that is quite possibly the funniest thing you have ever written on a message board, David.  So you actually do have a sense of humor!  You were joking, right?  Right, David?  Right?

I was engaging in hyperbole, which in this case is a bit of humor based on reality. (insert favorite cheshire cat grinning emoticon there)

Yes those DXers are awfully scary and kookie. 

What is a bit disconcerting is the intensity of passion of some AM DXers. The nastygrams are a reflection of some of them losing touch with reality in a hobby that should have a nice symbiotic relationship with radio. Many DXers don't understand that listeners outside the regular market a station has are not valued by the station. They also object to things like the Bell, Noory et. al. overnight nets by saying "I can get the same thing on 107 different stations..."

When some of them write to anyone who is not vehemently anti-HD, they are offensive and pretty much off on the dark side (where's my laser sword when I need it?). When they write to the "boss" of such a person to say that the person is ruining a radio station, it's even more macabre.

it reminds me of when we made the decision to take SeaCalm off KTNQ, a 50 kw LA station (one that puts a city grade over Pago Pago at night) and the AM stereo fans (those weren't fans, they were industrial strength blowers!) descended on me, the station manager, Cecil Heftel and others. When the ratings went up in the sharper null areas of the pattern, we were vindicated but the AM stereo buffs (shoudda' been buffed and sanded!) continued to rant on some web page for AM stereo.

I'm glad I never made a public statement about Quadraphonic.

If you were walking by that dirt pile at the time the HD radios exploded, then it would be all over, eh?

If I were wearing my full 10 kHz bandwidth flack jacket, it woud do no harm. (Reminds me of when I consulted a station in San Salvador in the early 80's... on a visit, I was given a kevlar vest as I left the airport "just in case." Nothing a DXer can do can match that...)

[HowardMBurgers]

When I growing up as a kid in Arlington, VA., the big N/T station was WMAL.  I used to tune in on potential snow days to see if school was cancelled.  Now that I've moved back to the area, the AM dial is a vast wasteland.  WMAL is riddled with power line and other terestrial noise, plus has nothing but syndicated right-wing talk.  Other than a couple Spanish Language talk stations, the only AM worth listening to is WABC out of NYC., but most times I just stay on FM because of all the noise and lack of content.

[badjef]

This thread began in August and this is January. With 19 pages it would appear as though something would be ironed out and you guys could submit something to the FCC or a manufacturer of receivers or even the "ailing" car companies. But the truth is, you have missed the real point and just like bad marksmen, you keep missing the target.

The FCC could care less, without enough interest from the owners themselves, the FCC will, for the most part, ignore AM. The have enough to do with trying to straighten up the DTV transition mess and the interference to other services and country complaints. They also want to start or continue the allocations to other services eager to use the freed up bandwidth.
Etc.

The FCC had at least 4 chances to get AM Stereo on the air in bulk. 1960, 1980, 1982, 1993, etc. The politics got in the way each and every time.

Kahn should have been authorized from the get go. Was Leonard difficult to work with? Was his system not quite adequate for the task? I have heard these things and then some. The reality is, we were left with a situation where everybody wanted to make all the money and nobody wanted to share in the responsibilities to make it work. Case in point: one thread indicated that proofs could not be completed correctly and Kahn had suggested the phasor be replaced. Is possible that the phasor being used was compensating for one tower being out of place for the recommended pattern? I'm sure we've all seen situations when the concrete is poured, it dries and is not where it should be - oops! It happens.

When some of you are sold on c-Quam equipment, is it because you felt gratification that the owner went with your recommendation and in the long run, after installing that Motorola or Harris equipment, it went unused? And now you would feel as though you could not justify an added expense to that owner whom so graciously offered that upgrade – even after he had mentioned the other systems? – and now the iBOC/HD/whatever debacle? Stuff happens…

AM can and is still valuable, I listen to 970 from Tampa every day from my home in Sa-ra-so-ta!
On Sunday mornings I listen to WQYK, but not from the same radio. Why? Because the signal is not good. When the owners had the chance to improve the signal, they could not justify it because they were so highly rated at the time and still are. Not so with WRBQ from the same location. Both have been downgraded to C1’s and shortspaced to boot.

The only way to correct this slide is by preparing for the future and what worked in the past and go from there. If it means revisiting what failed, maybe the real reasons were hidden from the original argument.

Hope this helps to put the discussion back on the right track.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta! (brrrr)

[Play Freebird]

But its transmitter land became so valuable that they, more recently, sold it when the price was right. The proceed built a new site, farther outside the District, and left a lot of money over after all was done.

As the real estate market improves, we will find more and more AMs that can't make much money cashing in the land value. Or, as some have already done, going from, let's say, 5 kw day 1 kw night, separate patterns to 2.2 kw non directional day, 180 watts non directional nights... acre or two of land (probably closer inside the market) and you can build it anywhere. The directional might need 6 to 10 acres, strategically placed to aim the signal.

One more reason why it makes more sense to open the 76-88 MHz band to AM licensees, rather than continuing to promote AM IBOC as the "solution".   Adopt an open source digital standard to keep receiver costs low, design the system to encourage single frequency networks, set a transition period of 20 years and let station owners decide when to shut down the medium wave transmitter and sell off the land.

This should have been planned from the start, but we may still have an opportunity.   Opponents of this proposal (NAB, MSTV, etc.) claim there's not enough vacant spectrum to accommodate the few remaining full service TV stations on channels 5 and 6, but where's the conclusive proof that they couldn't move down to 2, 3, or 4 -- or even UHF?     LPTVs and TV translators have much more flexibility to relocate (especially in rural markets) so they are less of a concern.   

Opponents also tried to derail this plan by telling us it would violate international agreements, but recently I heard Canada is quite interested in pursuing it.

[DavidEduardo]

One more reason why it makes more sense to open the 76-88 MHz band to AM licensees, rather than continuing to promote AM IBOC as the "solution".   Adopt an open source digital standard to keep receiver costs low, design the system to encourage single frequency networks, set a transition period of 20 years and let station owners decide when to shut down the medium wave transmitter and sell off the land.

Do you really think terrestrial broadcasting based on AM, FM or some derivitive of a discreet channel and transmitter model will be around in 20 years?