Are diehard listeners of this format TOO fickle?

[Nock]

I was 18 when I started listening to this music.  30 something years later and still listening.  Isn't that what you call a loyal listener?

Nock

[DavidEduardo]

According to the so called experts, I should be listening to rap and watching BET, which I don't like either of. 

Experts don't guess. As for radio usage, they look at ratings and also commission proprietary research.

We know as a fact that you are atypical. There are not enough listeners to smooth jazz in the under 45 and under 55 ages to have any impact on sales. Media buyers generally buy a certain number of stations deep, startinng at the top, to reach any desired age group. smooth jazz, on an 18-34 or 25-44 buy does not come in high enough in rank to get on the buys.

I'm so tired of being put in a box by the so called "experts" in the industry. 

The fact that Memphis is 50% African American does not mean every resident is half Boack and half White. It means that there are two big groups there, and that is a start for serving subsets... whether it be radio or for a potato chip manufacturer. If you don't fit in a fairly large box, you probably will not be served directly. That's why the curry section at the supermarket in Sioux City is not as large as the one in Washington, DC.

I'm in my mid-20s and I along with a good number of people in my age range love the genre.  It's not just listened to by the older (no offense to anyone in this range) crowd.  Why don't these so called geniuses actually go to the concerts and see for themselves.

Concert attendance indexes in inverse proprotion to age. And a venue full of concert goers is not representative of the market overall. When a major market station may need a half million to well over a million cumers to compete for sales, a venue with a few thousand people does not mean anything... a Cajun concert in Rochester could do that, and there is agreement that Cajun is not a format option in most places.

  Heck, you don't even have to go that far, why not go to facebook, add Sky Smooth Jazz (sky.fm facebook page) as a friend and come back and tell me if the majority of 2800+ people look like they are over 55+ ? 

The data used by advertisers and their agencies consists of quantitative views of the universe... that is, the entire market. From this, they extract data on the market segment they seek, based on their own product research. And unless a radio station delivers efficiently... meaning lots of poeople at a good cost... the desired target, the station will not be on an ad buy.

[JoshB]

Experts don't guess. As for radio usage, they look at ratings and also commission proprietary research.

We know as a fact that you are atypical. There are not enough listeners to smooth jazz in the under 45 and under 55 ages to have any impact on sales. Media buyers generally buy a certain number of stations deep, startinng at the top, to reach any desired age group. smooth jazz, on an 18-34 or 25-44 buy does not come in high enough in rank to get on the buys.

Well can their research explain why so many stations now are losing money?  Can they explain why a lot of former smooth jazz stations like WJZW 105.9, which lasted several years with decent ratings, but flipped because they weren't attracting a "good demo" , lasted only like one or two years , had dismal ratings, and had to end up flipping formats again??  Why is that. please explain to us common people, who are just to thick to understand how the magically radio industry works? 

The fact that Memphis is 50% African American does not mean every resident is half Boack and half White. It means that there are two big groups there, and that is a start for serving subsets... whether it be radio or for a potato chip manufacturer. If you don't fit in a fairly large box, you probably will not be served directly. That's why the curry section at the supermarket in Sioux City is not as large as the one in Washington, DC.

Concert attendance indexes in inverse proprotion to age. And a venue full of concert goers is not representative of the market overall. When a major market station may need a half million to well over a million cumers to compete for sales, a venue with a few thousand people does not mean anything... a Cajun concert in Rochester could do that, and there is agreement that Cajun is not a format option in most places.

  Heck, you don't even have to go that far, why not go to facebook, add Sky Smooth Jazz (sky.fm facebook page) as a friend and come back and tell me if the majority of 2800+ people look like they are over 55+ ? 

The data used by advertisers and their agencies consists of quantitative views of the universe... that is, the entire market. From this, they extract data on the market segment they seek, based on their own product research. And unless a radio station delivers efficiently... meaning lots of poeople at a good cost... the desired target, the station will not be on an ad buy.

Interesting how they try and quantify all this data about audiences.   So those folks at the concerts and the subscribers on the page, are atypical or outside the "norm".  So I guess they don't spend money?  Again, in my opinion, showing just how out of touch the industry is and why it is failing today.  I'm pretty sure, those folks probably have more disposable income than many other people my age. 

[DavidEduardo]

Well can their research explain why so many stations now are losing money?

There are three classes of stations that lose money. First, those that are such poor facilities that even with paid religion or ethnic they can't make it. Second are stations that got beaten by a better competitor. And third are those with formats that would be nice, but not huge money producers in a good economy... and which become unprofitable in hard times.

Much of the distress in the industry comes from the economy... not radio itself. Since radio is not a growth industry, a downturn hits hard.

Can they explain why a lot of former smooth jazz stations like WJZW 105.9, which lasted several years with decent ratings, but flipped because they weren't attracting a "good demo" , lasted only like one or two years , had dismal ratings, and had to end up flipping formats again?? 

The champs of marketing, Proctor & Gamble, has a 50% success rate in new product introductions... half of all products fail. But that is great in the categories they are in where the average success rate is just over 20%... 4 out of every 5 new products fails. And no industry does more consumer research than H&BA and package goods.

Some radio formats fail. Stations change again, and give it another try. It's been that way since the 50's.

Interesting how they try and quantify all this data about audiences.   So those folks at the concerts and the subscribers on the page, are atypical or outside the "norm".  So I guess they don't spend money?  Again, in my opinion, showing just how out of touch the industry is and why it is failing today.  I'm pretty sure, those folks probably have more disposable income than many other people my age. 

Concert goers are not representative of the appeal of a radio format. Club goers are not representative of the appeal of a radio format. First, if you take a concert in NY that draws 20,000.... you are talking about a tiny percentage of the 16,000,000 persons in the market. Second many people will go to a concert for one artist while they may not like a radio format based on similar artists because their interest is in that one artist, not the genre.

Radio is bought based on the number of ears in the target age group, not on the affluence of the listener group. Were affluence a factor, there would be lots of 55-64 buys... and there are essentialy none of those.

All the things you blame radio for are actually due to the need of radio to appeal to advertisers, delivering the ages that they want. So go insult P&G and McDonalds and Coke, not radio, please.

[AnotherCat]

One thing I've always wondered is who decided that the people who are 55 now were going to be like their parents as far as musical tastes. The parents of this generation grew up in the 30s and 40s with big band music and standards then the late 40s and 50s pre-rock were one of the most bland conservative eras for pop music that made the charts. The original elevator music  and stuff like Mitch Miller and Doris Day. It was partially the post-war culture settling down and the brashness of the big band era toned down. But now there is this assumption that people who grew up with some type of rock and had their musical tastes affected by progressive rock are going to suddenly want the Elevator music that our parents used to torture us with in the car - Easy Listening versions of pop songs?

It's a different world and a different generation with a different musical history. The whole movement to remove elements from the genre that were "too exciting" like electric guitar solos, horn sections, uptempo music..and to present the music with a B/EZ attitude (formality, announcer-ish voices, etc) was really misguided and has done a lot of damage over the last decade.

[Nock]

Cat

You said exactly what I have been trying to say and could not figure it out. 

Nock

[JoshB]

There are three classes of stations that lose money. First, those that are such poor facilities that even with paid religion or ethnic they can't make it. Second are stations that got beaten by a better competitor. And third are those with formats that would be nice, but not huge money producers in a good economy... and which become unprofitable in hard times.

Much of the distress in the industry comes from the economy... not radio itself. Since radio is not a growth industry, a downturn hits hard.

With the first two, that's not always the case.  I know a small class A station in my local market that has been on the air for years with the same format.  Do they make a lot of money, probably not, but they are still on the air, despite competition from a bigger station with the same format.  The owners just aren't that greedy like the Clear Channels of the world.  SJ has been through one recession before, what all of a sudden just made it unprofitable?  What makes KIFM flourish in San Diego, while WJZW in DC fails?  If it's all about attracting more listeners as you say, why flip from a format that attracts the same demo (let's say the 55+ older crowd, although I beg to differ) with higher numbers over to years to one, that could barely attract anyone and had competition from other stations?  In this case WJZW went from SJ to oldies.  The oldies only lasted a year, before flipping to rock.  It sounds like someone doesn't know what they're doing.

The champs of marketing, Proctor & Gamble, has a 50% success rate in new product introductions... half of all products fail. But that is great in the categories they are in where the average success rate is just over 20%... 4 out of every 5 new products fails. And no industry does more consumer research than H&BA and package goods.

Some radio formats fail. Stations change again, and give it another try. It's been that way since the 50's.

Well that thought process may have made since in the 50s, but you are in the 2000s now, where radio has a ton of competition from Internet radio, satellite radio, mp3 players etc.  Why would I as listener continue to listen to your lousy product, when I can find other products that are far superior.  It's getting much easier for one to listening to radio on their mobile device, while in a car or on public transportation.  As matter of fact, I'm finding it harder to find a portable FM radio these days.

Concert goers are not representative of the appeal of a radio format. Club goers are not representative of the appeal of a radio format. First, if you take a concert in NY that draws 20,000.... you are talking about a tiny percentage of the 16,000,000 persons in the market. Second many people will go to a concert for one artist while they may not like a radio format based on similar artists because their interest is in that one artist, not the genre.

Radio is bought based on the number of ears in the target age group, not on the affluence of the listener group. Were affluence a factor, there would be lots of 55-64 buys... and there are essentialy none of those.

Where are you coming up with these conclusions?  I guess you never saw the pictures of the large crowds at the Capital Jazz Fest, which had multiple SJ artist performing.  Maybe the industry (and advertisers) though, should change their business model.  We are a country of  300+ million people from different backgrounds, obviously not everyone is going to have the same taste in products, no matter what age group they are in.

All the things you blame radio for are actually due to the need of radio to appeal to advertisers, delivering the ages that they want. So go insult P&G and McDonalds and Coke, not radio, please.

No, I blame the industry.  Instead of being contempt with the money they were making from a niche format like SJ, they got greedy and watered down the format, trying to attract more people, but it backfired and caused a lot of loyal listeners to get turned off completely.  It's not just smooth jazz, but a bunch of other formats too, where you guys in the industry play the same thing over and over again.  Why would someone choose that, when they have access to thousands of station via the Internet?

[DavidEduardo]

With the first two, that's not always the case.  I know a small class A station in my local market that has been on the air for years with the same format.  Do they make a lot of money, probably not, but they are still on the air, despite competition from a bigger station with the same format. 

By bad facilities I did not mean well placed A's. I mean stations at the edge of a market, or ones that are rimshots, AMs that are daytimers or which have very bad night coverage, etc. Most of those, except for the salvation of religious and ethnic programming, are not viable.

Well that thought process may have made since in the 50s, but you are in the 2000s now, where radio has a ton of competition from Internet radio, satellite radio, mp3 players etc.  Why would I as listener continue to listen to your lousy product, when I can find other products that are far superior.  It's getting much easier for one to listening to radio on their mobile device, while in a car or on public transportation.  As matter of fact, I'm finding it harder to find a portable FM radio these days.

I am describing the decision making process for business in general... using Proctor & Gamble, not radio, as an example. Some new products fail. Some succeed, and that applies to radio. The fact that 95% of the population uses radio indicates that most people continue to use radio, even if they are also using other sources of entertainment. And much of what they are listening to on strems is simply the same thing that is on a radio station... just a different transmission device.

Concert goers are not representative of the appeal of a radio format. Club goers are not representative of the appeal of a radio

Where are you coming up with these conclusions?  I guess you never saw the pictures of the large crowds at the Capital Jazz Fest, which had multiple SJ artist performing.  Maybe the industry (and advertisers) though, should change their business model.  We are a country of  300+ million people from different backgrounds, obviously not everyone is going to have the same taste in products, no matter what age group they are in.

In LA, to give an example, 20,000 persons at a major venue do not make a raidio format when a successful station needs to cume around 2 million or more. As I said, a cajun festival could do that well, but there are no cajun radio stations outside of a part of Louisiana...

All the things you blame radio for are actually due to the need of radio to appeal to advertisers, delivering the ages that they want. So go insult P&G and McDonalds and Coke, not radio, please.

No, I blame the industry.  Instead of being contempt with the money they were making from a niche format like SJ, they got greedy and watered down the format, trying to attract more people, but it backfired and caused a lot of loyal listeners to get turned off completely.  It's not just smooth jazz, but a bunch of other formats too, where you guys in the industry play the same thing over and over again.  Why would someone choose that, when they have access to thousands of station via the Internet?

The issue with SJ has been the ageing of the demographics. Period.

As most of the listeners moved into ages advertisers do no usually seek, the revenue base declined... in some cases horribly. Add in a bad economy, and a mildly profitable format can become unprofitable with no end in sight. Those folks who believe in the format have tried to find a way to keep the concept alive, but for a younger demo.

Playing the favorite songs over and over (really, in this kind of format it means the average listener hears the same song about two or three times a month) is the only way to get ratings. Stations that play a tighter list, all other factors being equal, nearly always beat stations with extended lists in the ratings. And ratings are the basis for ad buys...

[AC Tones]

According to the so called experts, I should be listening to rap and watching BET, which I don't like either of. 

Experts don't guess. As for radio usage, they look at ratings and also commission proprietary research.

We know as a fact that you are atypical. There are not enough listeners to smooth jazz in the under 45 and under 55 ages to have any impact on sales. Media buyers generally buy a certain number of stations deep, startinng at the top, to reach any desired age group. smooth jazz, on an 18-34 or 25-44 buy does not come in high enough in rank to get on the buys.

Concert attendance indexes in inverse proprotion to age. And a venue full of concert goers is not representative of the market overall. When a major market station may need a half million to well over a million cumers to compete for sales, a venue with a few thousand people does not mean anything... a Cajun concert in Rochester could do that, and there is agreement that Cajun is not a format option in most places.
 

Although I posted the link to Carol's blog, for the purposes of this "old, tired" argument, I thought it was more effective to selectively and directly quote it:

Significant Programming Shifts

Kepler continues: "I also wanted to pass along some innovation regarding programming on the Smooth Jazz Network. We have been studying PPM music flow data for the past year and are seeing some interesting trends.

"1. While the format is seeing some struggle in the depth and reach, (somewhat due to smaller sample within some demos), we do see the format reflecting stronger numbers (in Los Angeles for example) in 25-54, reflecting a younger audience than we saw prior to PPM.

"2. In strategic research studies across the broad consumer market, we also see potential among the younger end of the 25-54 demo. We commonly see a real taste for the music, but often times that younger age group is unaware of the local Smooth Jazz station.

Here's a comment Mr. Kepler makes about concert goers:

Kepler strikes an upbeat note: "Even with the challenges facing everyone in every business, this is a very exciting time for the format: with new artists coming on board; perhaps the busiest summer tour schedule I've seen in recent years; and the fact that today our format holds more of a solid, unique and exclusive position compared to other radio formats than ever before.

It sure seems to me a couple industry folks aren't exactly on the same sheet of music, er, I mean "radio."

[Nock]

I am describing the decision making process for business in general... using Proctor & Gamble, not radio, as an example. Some new products fail. Some succeed, and that applies to radio. The fact that 95% of the population uses radio indicates that most people continue to use radio, even if they are also using other sources of entertainment. And much of what they are listening to on strems is simply the same thing that is on a radio station... just a different transmission device.

This all reminds me of how the record industry went down the toilet.  Remember some young college kid who figured out how to transfer mp3 files and the record companies denied it would do anything to them?  Radio in same state of denial.

Nock