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Author Topic: Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio  (Read 3937 times)
TSL2
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Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio
« on: September 04, 2010, 04:12:32 PM »

From the website http://www.keefebartels.com, law firm Keefe Bartels have started an  investigation into claims and complaints regarding HD radio. Of concern is are consumers being forced to purchase technology that doesn't work as claimed. And a case is being made that that carmakers knew the technology came with problems. They've referenced " 2007, BMW released a Service Information Bulletin describing the problems associated with HD Radio, but noted that there was no retrofit kit or procedure available."

Consumer complaints come from factory installed HD radio receivers, but the law firm is also looking closely at iBiquity, they said according to iBiquity, the “HD” does not stand for anything.  Instead, iBiquity likely uses the “HD” as a "marketing device based upon consumers’ understanding and ever increasing desire for HD television."  A marketing slip of the tong!

Their site also says complaints have come from the industry and consumers
and includes the following:

Radio receiver bumping station from HD to analog mode;
Echo sound heard when the radio switches between HD and analog modes;
Crackling or static sound when HD mode is inactive;
Insufficient numbers of HD Radio stations;
Loss of signal while driving in valleys or between high buildings;
Signal disruption for environmental conditions; and
Adjacent channel interference.

The net result of this could be:

iBiquity will end up paying and paying their law firms.
HD manufactures will pay and pay their law firms
Carmakers will pay and pay their law firms
Consumers may get a new radio installed free
HD radio will be branded as bad technology that nobody will touch for fear of being sued.
Before purchasing an HD product, consumers will sign and read an understanding and
accept all risks from operating the technology.
iBquity will have to change their marketing to say, may hear an improved sound quality.
Broadcasters may also be at risk of paying and paying their lawyers too.

Looks like The Emperor Wears No Clothes



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DavidEduardo
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Re: Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 12:59:43 AM »

Their site also says complaints have come from the industry and consumers
and includes the following:

I had a 2007 BMW with the HD module factory installed. I had the car mostly in the Los Angeles metro, but a lot of time in the Phoenix metro and adjacent to it, also. So I am likely as familiar with the HD capabilities as anyone, and more than most.

Quote
Radio receiver bumping station from HD to analog mode;

That is a design feature, a positive. It is similar to Multiplex FM stereo which folds back to analog if the stereo data on the subcarrier is not usable. Since the FCC determined the power level for HD, any folding back is as much due to the FCC as the system itself.

Quote
Echo sound heard when the radio switches between HD and analog modes;

That would be the individual station's fault, not the system. If properly set up, there is no time delay (echo).

Quote
Crackling or static sound when HD mode is inactive;

Never heard in 4 years and 60,000 miles of driving.

Quote
Insufficient numbers of HD Radio stations;

FM stereo took over three years to reach 100 stations when first authorized. HD has over 1500... even without counting those that may not have installed but have contracted for it.
 
Quote
Loss of signal while driving in valleys or between high buildings;

When they make non-attenuating hills, mountains and buildings, I want to be among the first to know about it.

Quote
Signal disruption for environmental conditions;

And inversion layers and tropo and e-skip and such are to be prevented in what manner? That affects all FM propagation, anyway.

Quote
Adjacent channel interference.

To stations that are not entitled by the terms of their licence to protection, in 99.9% of the cases (WYSL is one of the three or four exceptions, of course). 

Quote
iBiquity will end up paying and paying their law firms.
HD manufactures will pay and pay their law firms
Carmakers will pay and pay their law firms
Consumers may get a new radio installed free

Or... the engineering exhibits and the FCC approvals will show that neither the system nor nor the receivers are at fault. iBiquity might countersue for its costs and damages

In some cases, the laws of physics are at fault, but appealing that is a matter for a Higher Court.

Quote
HD radio will be branded as bad technology that nobody will touch for fear of being sued. Before purchasing an HD product, consumers will sign and read an understanding and
accept all risks from operating the technology.

HD is what it is within the power levels permitted. So is FM stereo, which has very similar problems based on the lesser coverage of the stereo subcarrier. Did anyone sue over FM Stereo (Leonard Kahn would have sued, but he was busy with the AM side).

Quote
Looks like The Emperor Wears No Clothes

Looks like a law firm that might not have done the necessary due diligence, since they don't even know how to tell the difference between propagation issues, FCC regulations and the design itself.
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TSL2
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Re: Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 10:12:41 AM »

For professionals like you, the issues are acceptable and considered within industry norms.

However, marketing HD radio a term associated with high-def is a different issue.
The case is being made iBiquity misrepresented their product. Despite your informed opinion,
a judge with his/her personal opinion is where this could get tricky.

HD radio may now come with a warnings where the consumer must sign/excepts all risks.

Sound maybe not true HD/Cd quality.
User may experience sound loss
iBiquity is not responsible for content or lack of.
Users may experience some echo
While using HD-1 users will not notice any improved sound.

These warning were omitted from the sale pitch because consumers would think twice before spending $500.00 for an upgraded system. 

Keefe Bartels  is making the case for lier, lier, pants on fire! So pay me and shut up!


       

 
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TheBigA
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Re: Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 10:48:19 AM »


HD radio may now come with a warnings where the consumer must sign/excepts all risks.
 

A lawsuit wouldn't lead to such warnings.  That's a very different process.

But really...what would you hope to accomplish by such warnings?  A drop in sales?  From what?

And speaking of warnings...have you seen the side-effects caused by some FDA-approved drugs?  One could even cause suicide.  Although their studies show less than 10% of the users have attempted suicide as a result of using the drug.  Now THAT might be cause for a lawsuit.  A relative of mine was part of a class action lawsuit against a drug a few years ago, and it went nowhere.  No money, no warnings, and the product is still on the market.


Keefe Bartels  is making the case for lier, lier, pants on fire! So pay me and shut up!


Hater, hater, see ya later.

And it's spelled: Liar.  Genius.

Look: This product has been on the market for a while and with all the complaints on this board and others, no radio stations have sued for the interference it causes.  THAT is the most likely approach for a lawsuit because it's clearly in the FCC rules.  A consumer lawsuit is frivolous, because you have to show harm.  Contrary to what you say, no one was "forced to purchase" an HD radio. 

In any case, let me know when they bring this to court.  If this is the best they can come up with, I don't expect it to get that far.
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gr8oldies
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Re: Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2010, 10:59:06 AM »

I can see the TV ad now: Are you dissatisfied with your HD radio? You may be entitled to compensation. Call the law firm of Dewey Cheatam and Howe at 1-800-669-BAKY"
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KeithE4
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Re: Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2010, 12:38:33 PM »

I can see the TV ad now: Are you dissatisfied with your HD radio? You may be entitled to compensation. Call the law firm of Dewey Cheatam and Howe at 1-800-669-BAKY"

I thought their number was 1-800-SHYSTER. Grin
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audioguy
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Re: Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 01:58:44 PM »

I think it was wrong for Ibiquity to call their system "HD" radio. There is nothing about "HD Radio" that is "high definition". This appears to have been a deliberate attempt to capitalize on the public's familiarity with the term's association with High Definition TV broadcasting.
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TheBigA
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Re: Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 02:02:48 PM »

Yep, and we should sue Sony for trying to sell "digital headphones." 

I'm not kidding.  Go to any store.  They sell headphones that are "digital ready." 

I think iBiquity got out of trouble by saying "HD doesn't stand for anything."  What they said 8 years ago doesn't matter any more.
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audioguy
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Re: Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2010, 02:43:29 PM »

Yep, and we should sue Sony for trying to sell "digital headphones." 

I'm not kidding.  Go to any store.  They sell headphones that are "digital ready." 

I think iBiquity got out of trouble by saying "HD doesn't stand for anything."  What they said 8 years ago doesn't matter any more.

Yes, but just try selling a "McDonald style" hamburger. It's not like you're claiming it's from McDonald's, you're just saying it's that type of hamburger. How long would you get away with that?

Same deal with "IBOC". Although it wasn't used as a trademark, I believe it was used to mislead the FCC and the industry into thinking that the digital information is actually transmitted "on channel" when it's not: it's transmitted OFF channel; meaning on your neighbor's channel.
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TheBigA
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Re: Keefe Bartels investigation into HD Radio
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2010, 02:50:26 PM »


Yes, but just try selling a "McDonald style" hamburger. It's not like you're claiming it's from McDonald's, you're just saying it's that type of hamburger. How long would you get away with that?


Not the same thing.  The letters "HD" are not copyrighted or exclusive for use with digital products.
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