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Author Topic: Family Stations Will Sell 94.7FM WFME Newark  (Read 25476 times)
Scott Fybush
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Re: Family Stations Will Sell 94.7FM WFME Newark
« Reply #200 on: February 08, 2012, 04:54:39 PM »

Which will make the move to Empire necessary to compete for those 10 Million people.

What do you do about WIGX 94.3A in Smithtown? It's not short-spaced to the present WFME, but the quirks of the spacing rules are such that it's impossibly short-spaced to Empire, so much so that it can't be directionalized or grandfathered out of being an issue.

You've suggested in the past that money can solve everything, but maybe not in this case: even if a putative deep-pocketed buyer of WFME wanted to also buy WIGX, there's nowhere WIGX can be moved to "get it out of the way." Go east and you're short to WHJY, north and you exacerbate the existing grandfathered short to WYBC-FM, south and you're in the water. And it's longstanding FCC policy that has never been waived that you can't just make an existing allocation go away.
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Barry
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Re: Family Stations Will Sell 94.7FM WFME Newark
« Reply #201 on: February 08, 2012, 06:24:11 PM »

If a New Jersey and beyond format such as country is broadcast on WFME, the expense/difficulty of moving the station could be avoided. And if Cumulus is the buyer, they have the option of using WFAS as a simulcast, either from its current location in White Plains, or moved into the Bronx!
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WNTIRadio
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Re: Family Stations Will Sell 94.7FM WFME Newark
« Reply #202 on: February 08, 2012, 09:05:33 PM »

Quote
Which will make the move to Empire necessary to compete for those 10 Million people.

37kW on South Mountain in NJ or 600W DA on Empire?  I dunno, I know that there's the "overload issue", but I'd rather have the 38kW on South Mountain.  In my car, WFME comes in fine in Manhattan. 

And, if the buildings-as-terrain is a problem, there's a big 54dBu contour that an on-channel booster can be placed in, directionalized to fill in the areas shadowed by the skyscrapers.  Plenty of room on the roof at 4TS.  The 54 goes out past Levittown on Long Island.  That's a lot of room for a booster to fill out Queens and Nassau counties.
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SonoSational18
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Re: Family Stations Will Sell 94.7FM WFME Newark
« Reply #203 on: February 08, 2012, 09:06:36 PM »

It would appear that 94.3 could slide eastward almost 20 miles and not be an issue with 94.1 in Providence.  It woud cause it to be further short-spaced with 94.3 New Haven, but since most of that's over water, that could probably be handled with a directional.  I am, though seeing some short spacing approved that is way inside the FCC requirements.  For instance, here in NE Ohio, WKDD was recently granted a move to a transmitter site in Cuyahoga Falls.  That's less than 10 miles away from 3rd Adjacent Class B WONE on 97.5 and less than 20 away rom 3rd-Adj. Class B WNCX on 98.5.  With some creative engineering and a DA, I'm pretty conident that WFME could move to the ESB.
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Scott Fybush
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Re: Family Stations Will Sell 94.7FM WFME Newark
« Reply #204 on: February 08, 2012, 09:39:41 PM »

It would appear that 94.3 could slide eastward almost 20 miles and not be an issue with 94.1 in Providence.  It woud cause it to be further short-spaced with 94.3 New Haven, but since most of that's over water, that could probably be handled with a directional.  I am, though seeing some short spacing approved that is way inside the FCC requirements.  For instance, here in NE Ohio, WKDD was recently granted a move to a transmitter site in Cuyahoga Falls.  That's less than 10 miles away from 3rd Adjacent Class B WONE on 97.5 and less than 20 away rom 3rd-Adj. Class B WNCX on 98.5.  With some creative engineering and a DA, I'm pretty conident that WFME could move to the ESB.

There is a very, very big difference between the Ohio example you cite and this case, though.

What's now WKDD on 98.1 was allocated before 1964, as were the stations that are now WONE and WNCX, and those stations have remained short-spaced to each other ever since. As a result, they're eligible to use the provisions of 73.213, which has no restriction on spacing between grandfathered second- and third-adjacent signals. If there weren't other factors at play, 98.1 could have moved all the way into the Seven Hills/Parma tower farm without having to worry about WONE or WNCX.

As has been explored pretty extensively here by Play Freebird and others, WFME doesn't have that same luxury. While there is indeed some "creative engineering" that could be done to make WFME work at Empire with respect to another big obstacle, co-channel WMAS-FM Enfield CT (especially if WFME is purchased by WMAS-FM's owner, Cumulus), it was Freebird who first noted 73.213 does not apply to the WFME/WIGX spacing. While both signals are pre-1964, they're not grandfathered short-spaced because they're not short-spaced under the current rules (73.207). And without being able to use the grandfathering provisions of 73.213, you have to turn instead to a different set of short-spacing rules, 73.215...which includes a mileage-spacing table that makes it very clear that WFME-at-Empire and WIGX don't qualify, DA or no DA.

And, again, there is no room on the Empire mast for a separate directional antenna, nor would it be financially feasible for a single station to pay rent for an FM antenna aperture there, even if room existed.

Laying all that aside, WIGX is already egregiously short-spaced to WYBC-FM, and the rules don't allow for that short-spacing to be further increased, either.

(On another matter, I'm also not fully convinced that a booster would be the right answer for WFME, either. Boosters are great when there's massive terrain blockage between the main site and the booster, which is why they're mostly seen out west. In Salt Lake City, for instance, there's a site 60 miles out of town that was specifically designed to be completely blocked from the core of the market by the Wasatch Mountains in between. That allows for powerful boosters to "fill in" the signal over Salt Lake City itself. But in the case of WFME, there's lots of WFME RF that gets past the skyscrapers to the east side of Manhattan and beyond; it's just multipath-distorted and messy. Throw a booster against that and you're only adding to the mess, as WFUV and WFMU have been learning with their own booster attempts in Manhattan and Brooklyn.)
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badjef
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Re: Family Stations Will Sell 94.7FM WFME Newark
« Reply #205 on: February 08, 2012, 10:30:01 PM »

Which will make the move to Empire necessary to compete for those 10 Million people.

What do you do about WIGX 94.3A in Smithtown? It's not short-spaced to the present WFME, but the quirks of the spacing rules are such that it's impossibly short-spaced to Empire, so much so that it can't be directionalized or grandfathered out of being an issue.

You've suggested in the past that money can solve everything, but maybe not in this case: even if a putative deep-pocketed buyer of WFME wanted to also buy WIGX, there's nowhere WIGX can be moved to "get it out of the way." Go east and you're short to WHJY, north and you exacerbate the existing grandfathered short to WYBC-FM, south and you're in the water. And it's longstanding FCC policy that has never been waived that you can't just make an existing allocation go away.
I would love to talk about "south", but I'll keep our conversation on a more realistic and practical basis, for now.

I don't see how our scenario gets cut "short" when you have WFAS doing the opposite.
As a Class A in White Plains, is not only able to move in, but change a City of License to inside the 5 Boroughs - and it is not one of the "Sacred 20+5" frequencies as is 94.7.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
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Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
Home to the 2012 American League Wild Card Champion Spring Training Sa-ra-so-ta! Orioles.
www.myteamsuspenders.com and tell us you read it here for free shipping of your favorite sports team.
badjef
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Re: Family Stations Will Sell 94.7FM WFME Newark
« Reply #206 on: February 08, 2012, 11:03:16 PM »

Quote
Which will make the move to Empire necessary to compete for those 10 Million people.

37kW on South Mountain in NJ or 600W DA on Empire?  I dunno, I know that there's the "overload issue", but I'd rather have the 38kW on South Mountain.  In my car, WFME comes in fine in Manhattan. 

And, if the buildings-as-terrain is a problem, there's a big 54dBu contour that an on-channel booster can be placed in, directionalized to fill in the areas shadowed by the skyscrapers.  Plenty of room on the roof at 4TS.  The 54 goes out past Levittown on Long Island.  That's a lot of room for a booster to fill out Queens and Nassau counties.
The 54 goes out that far but not without problem. Consider that the antenna is only 800 feet above sea level. Empire is approximately 1,300ft above sea level at 1,250ft above street level. None of the other buildings are that high, but they are getting closer.

There are approximately 15 buildings that exceed the height of 800ft. The signal then has to wrap around the other buildings to make it to street level or inside the buildings.

The "signal vector" I have mentioned before comes into play. Instead of taking the signal from the top, it is coming in from the side.

You know, I remember thinking of all these scenarios through the 70's and 80's before I moved to Sa-ra-so-ta!, I feel as though I'm living the song, "Welcome to the Future". I'm glad I lived long enough to see this and my grand-children - and I thank God, I'm still young enough to enjoy it.
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Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
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Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
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www.myteamsuspenders.com and tell us you read it here for free shipping of your favorite sports team.
WNTIRadio
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Re: Family Stations Will Sell 94.7FM WFME Newark
« Reply #207 on: February 08, 2012, 11:29:18 PM »

Quote
I would love to talk about "south", but I'll keep our conversation on a more realistic and practical basis, for now.

I don't see how our scenario gets cut "short" when you have WFAS doing the opposite.
As a Class A in White Plains, is not only able to move in, but change a City of License to inside the 5 Boroughs - and it is not one of the "Sacred 20+5" frequencies as is 94.7.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

You're totally missing that both 96.7 and 103.9 are pre-1964 grandfathered stations, like Scott 'splained above.  They can move.  All 103.9 has to do is stay 16km away from Empire because of 10.7MHz IF issues.  The site in the Bronx satisfies that need.

A directional antenna on Empire, while being mucho-expsensivo also has the problem of where the heck do you put the thing??  There's no room at the inn!  Look at all the creative antenna hanging that had to be done to put all of the TV stations back there after 9/11.

However, there is some room on 4TS.  But again, 4TS brings up all of those allocation table issues mentioned above.  Since the commercial band works on allocation tables and not contour protection like non-comm, it can't move to Empire even with a DA.  If it were in the reserved band, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  WBGO made the move with a DA easily to 4TS.

If 94.7 could have easily been moved to NYC, don't you think that would have been done long ago?

The other option could be a taller tower at the site in NJ if it could get by all the NIMBYs.  A 400' tower would put the COR at 1,050'.  A 600' tower would place it at 1,250'.  Of course, the chance of a 600' tower being built there is probably slim to none. 
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Zach
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Re: Family Stations Will Sell 94.7FM WFME Newark
« Reply #208 on: February 08, 2012, 11:37:45 PM »

I'm glad you guys have discussed the booster option because I was going to bring it up earlier.

Since the skyscaper wall that is Manhattan isn't solid like a ridge and lets some RF through from WFME, could there be a creative solution to make a booster work?  Like maybe using different polarities for the parent and booster, or using beam tilt in some creative fashion since WFME's signal vector is so low?
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Nick
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Re: Family Stations Will Sell 94.7FM WFME Newark
« Reply #209 on: February 09, 2012, 05:46:19 AM »

The interference between a main and a booster sounds bad. I remember hearing about 10 miles of interference between the main and the booster of 94.5 The Vibe in Las Vegas on the highway between the booster site and the main transmitter site, but no interference after passing the booster site going downhill towards Vegas. The booster is 50 miles away from the main. The main is a 100000 watt class C and the booster is only 340 watts. The booster is on a mountain between Las Vegas and the 94.5 main transmitter. Before the booster went on the air, 94.5 was nearly inaudible in Vegas, except on the upper floors of the casinos. After the booster went on the air, 94.5 could be heard well in Vegas.

The 10 miles of interference there is in the middle of the desert. Even 1 mile of interference over here can affect a million people. There is no terrain blocking 94.7 from Manhattan.

One thing that could happen would be that the new owner of 94.7 also buys 87.7. That signal is better towards the north and east, because the Manhattan buildings block it to the west. 87.7 also suffers from overloading near Empire, but it can be heard well in the eastern half of Manhattan. There's also an overmodulated powerful pirate station on 87.9 in Newark that interferes with 87.7 after it passes through the Manhattan skyscrapers, further interfering with it, but 94.7 is there.

I wonder how 94.7's HD signal would be in Manhattan if it had HD. Would it be resistant to multipath, or would it drop out? The Empire signals are orders of magnitude stronger in Manhattan, and the HD can withstand a 60 dB difference in signal strength while moving. However, I doubt the new owner of 94.7 will downgrade it to HD because they now know that no one is listening in HD 9 years after HD debuted on 102.7 Blink.
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