Family Stations Will Sell 94.7FM WFME Newark

[badjef]

I would love to talk about "south", but I'll keep our conversation on a more realistic and practical basis, for now.

I don't see how our scenario gets cut "short" when you have WFAS doing the opposite.
As a Class A in White Plains, is not only able to move in, but change a City of License to inside the 5 Boroughs - and it is not one of the "Sacred 20+5" frequencies as is 94.7.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

You're totally missing that both 96.7 and 103.9 are pre-1964 grandfathered stations, like Scott 'splained above.  They can move.  All 103.9 has to do is stay 16km away from Empire because of 10.7MHz IF issues.  The site in the Bronx satisfies that need.

Those issues don't come into play with 94.7. And 94.7 is grandfathered as a full "B". Admit it or not, it is a New York City "B". It just has a Newark, New Jersey City of License, just as WHTZ.

A directional antenna on Empire, while being mucho-expsensivo also has the problem of where the heck do you put the thing??  There's no room at the inn!  Look at all the creative antenna hanging that had to be done to put all of the TV stations back there after 9/11.

A lot of that room has been cleared out due to the removal of the equipment following the analogue shut down. (God Bless, Alex Smirnoff)

However, there is some room on 4TS.  But again, 4TS brings up all of those allocation table issues mentioned above.  Since the commercial band works on allocation tables and not contour protection like non-comm, it can't move to Empire even with a DA.  If it were in the reserved band, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  WBGO made the move with a DA easily to 4TS.

4TS might be an option. And a change of heart with regard to having a "real" antenna on 1WTC. This discussion has been primarily focusing on an Empire installation.

If 94.7 could have easily been moved to NYC, don't you think that would have been done long ago?

No, as far as Family was concerned, Oakland was where the studios were and 94.7 was a translator for it. They had no debt with 94.7 and the signal was acceptable for what they wanted to accomplish with it. No desire to move it.

The other option could be a taller tower at the site in NJ if it could get by all the NIMBYs.  A 400' tower would put the COR at 1,050'.  A 600' tower would place it at 1,250'.  Of course, the chance of a 600' tower being built there is probably slim to none. 

Yeah, you're right about that.
That ain't going to happen, either. As they would have to lower power as they raised the antenna, effects from multipath, and front end overload would be worse (in the City) than what they have, now. There is a Manhattan "D" application for 105.5 that may come into play with intermod. And then there's the NIMBY factor, you mention where they are, (you can see the current antenna from the South Orange train station)...

As all these factors come into play, the move to Empire becomes a necessity.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

[w9wi]

One thing that could happen would be that the new owner of 94.7 also buys 87.7. That signal is better towards the north and east, because the Manhattan buildings block it to the west. 87.7 also suffers from overloading near Empire, but it can be heard well in the eastern half of Manhattan. There's also an overmodulated powerful pirate station on 87.9 in Newark that interferes with 87.7 after it passes through the Manhattan skyscrapers, further interfering with it, but 94.7 is there.

Problem is, 87.7 goes away in three years.

[Scott Fybush]

You're totally missing that both 96.7 and 103.9 are pre-1964 grandfathered stations, like Scott 'splained above.  They can move.  All 103.9 has to do is stay 16km away from Empire because of 10.7MHz IF issues.  The site in the Bronx satisfies that need.

Those issues don't come into play with 94.7. And 94.7 is grandfathered as a full "B". Admit it or not, it is a New York City "B". It just has a Newark, New Jersey City of License, just as WHTZ.

Once more, with feeling:

When the current spacing rules took effect in 1964, these pairs of stations did not meet the new mileage tables:

96.7 Stamford CT - 96.3 NYC (then at Chanin Bldg.)
96.7 Stamford CT - 97.1 NYC (then at ESB)

103.9 White Plains - 103.5 Lake Success (then along the LIE)
103.9 White Plains - 104.3 NYC (then on E. 40th St, I think)

93.5 New Rochelle - 93.1 Paterson (then on one of the 930 towers?)
93.5 New Rochelle - 93.9 NYC (then on the Municipal Building)

Because those pairs of stations were not fully-spaced according to the 1964 rules, they were grandfathered in and have had no spacing restrictions against each other ever since. That's why 93.9 96.3 and 103.5 and 104.3 had no issues (at least with respect to the suburban class As) with moving to Empire or to other NYC sites, and it's why 96.7 and 103.9 and 93.5 were subsequently able to relocate to the Bronx. (Though 103.9, it should be noted, is licensed not to "The Bronx" but to "Bronxville," which is entirely another kettle of more upscale fish.)

But, again, in 1964 this pair of stations was fully spaced according to the new mileage table:

94.7 Newark NJ - 94.3 Smithtown NY (then, presumably, on one of the 740 towers)

Full spacing in 1964 meant no grandfathering, which means any subsequent move for either station cannot be done according to the special rules in section 73.213, but must instead comply with the post-1964 rules in 73.207 (full spacing) or 73.215 (short-spacing). None of the possible NYC transmitter locations for 94.7 are far enough from 94.3 in Smithtown to comply with the mileage tables in 73.207, and what's more, they don't even comply with the "absolute minimum" mileage tables in 73.215.

[badjef]

One thing that could happen would be that the new owner of 94.7 also buys 87.7. That signal is better towards the north and east, because the Manhattan buildings block it to the west. 87.7 also suffers from overloading near Empire, but it can be heard well in the eastern half of Manhattan. There's also an overmodulated powerful pirate station on 87.9 in Newark that interferes with 87.7 after it passes through the Manhattan skyscrapers, further interfering with it, but 94.7 is there.

Problem is, 87.7 goes away in three years.

Too bad, I like the signal from 87.7. That little sucker has a lot of punch for what it is.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

[Gregg]

Maybe this has been covered already but why could 93.1 WPAT-FM move its transmitter to Manhattan (Chrysler Building I think?) with 93.1 WHYN-FM as a full-power Class B in Springfield MA.  But 94.7 WFME would be short-spaced to 94.7 WMAS, at least when it was also licensed to Springfield?  WMAS, as pointed out, has a lesser coverage area than WHYN-FM due to its short tower.

By the way, has this also been discussed?  Why did WMAS move its City of License to Enfield CT anyway?  Why would a station with MAS in its call letters move to a community in Connecticut?   Does it have something to do with 97.9 WPKX, formerly licensed to Enfield, moving to Windsor Locks and becoming a Hartford-area station?  WPKX is Clear Channel, WMAS is Cumulus.   I could understand Clear Channel wanting the FCC to know Enfield wasn't losing a station, and moving one of its other stations to an Enfield COL.  But WMAS and WPKX are not co-owned.  WMAS moving to Enfiled technically puts it closer to NYC, even if the transmitter doesn't move an inch.  And that further complicates WFME improving its signal to the East.


Gregg
nh153@mail.com

[WNTIRadio]

One thing that could happen would be that the new owner of 94.7 also buys 87.7. That signal is better towards the north and east, because the Manhattan buildings block it to the west. 87.7 also suffers from overloading near Empire, but it can be heard well in the eastern half of Manhattan. There's also an overmodulated powerful pirate station on 87.9 in Newark that interferes with 87.7 after it passes through the Manhattan skyscrapers, further interfering with it, but 94.7 is there.

The clock is ticking on 87.7.  All of the analog TV translators and LPTV's are going to be shut down soon, probably in less than 3 years.

I don't see any legitimate company simulcasting their signal on a "Franken FM" TV as radio setup.  Or sending their audience to a station that some radios can't receive.

And my a** that's running the 300 watt aural power into the DA like it's supposed to.  It seems a lot more like 3kW of visual power is also being run on the aural side.  AND, while we're at it, they aren't modulating under TV rules either.  No BTSC, but regular FM MPX and 75kHz deviation. 

[Scott Fybush]

The WMAS-FM "move" to Enfield was indeed part of a larger deal that allowed WPKX to move into Windsor Locks/Hartford. What was then Citadel accepted the COL change in exchange for Clear Channel providing it with a generator atop Sandia Crest in Albuquerque for the Citadel stations there. Clear Channel got to pull 97.9 out of "Enfield" and move it into Hartford, WMAS-FM retained the fiction of "first local service" to Enfield, and then there was a second piece of the deal that involved Clear Channel and Hall for modifications to Hall's 97.7 and 100.9 in eastern Connecticut.

At the time Citadel did that deal, WFME and New York City wasn't a factor in anyone's thinking, since nobody knew Family was going to sell or that Citadel would be sold to Cumulus, which would be in a position to buy.

As for WPAT-FM versus WHYN-FM, that move happened under an earlier version of the spacing rules. It couldn't be done today...and indeed, the short-spacing between those two signals is the cause for what's now a ten-year FCC battle that's kept WPAT-FM from being fully relicensed to Empire; it's been operating at reduced power from Empire under STA ever since 9/11.

[w9wi]

One thing that could happen would be that the new owner of 94.7 also buys 87.7. That signal is better towards the north and east, because the Manhattan buildings block it to the west. 87.7 also suffers from overloading near Empire, but it can be heard well in the eastern half of Manhattan. There's also an overmodulated powerful pirate station on 87.9 in Newark that interferes with 87.7 after it passes through the Manhattan skyscrapers, further interfering with it, but 94.7 is there.

The clock is ticking on 87.7.  All of the analog TV translators and LPTV's are going to be shut down soon, probably in less than 3 years.

I don't see any legitimate company simulcasting their signal on a "Franken FM" TV as radio setup.  Or sending their audience to a station that some radios can't receive.

I think the ones on channel 6 that are already operating as radio stations will probably continue to do so until the deadline.  Don't think I'd be starting a new one though.

And my a** that's running the 300 watt aural power into the DA like it's supposed to.  It seems a lot more like 3kW of visual power is also being run on the aural side.  AND, while we're at it, they aren't modulating under TV rules either.  No BTSC, but regular FM MPX and 75kHz deviation. 

If analog LPTVs were held to the same aural power limit as full-power analog stations, the limit would be 660 watts.  (22% of visual.  It was VERY common for full-power analog stations to operate at an aural power of 10% of visual, but anything up to 22% was legal and a fair number of stations used 15% or 20%.) 

But that rule doesn't apply to LPTVs.  Neither does the one limiting aural modulation to 25KHz. 

Full-power stations are regulated under Part 73.  Low-power stations are in Part 74.  The FCC didn't duplicate most of the technical regulations for LPs -- they incorporated them by reference.  There's a rule in Part 74 that contains a list of full-power rules in Part 73 that also apply to -LP stations.  The rules limiting aural power & deviation are not in that list. 

Actually, by my reading regular FM MPX would have been legal for *full-power* stations.  (as well as for -LPs)  It was necessary to protect the 15.734KHz BTSC pilot tone, but the FM MPX standard does that.  Of course, the peak deviation limits *did* apply to full-power stations, and on any channel except 6 there would be no receivers capable of receiving it...

[WNTIRadio]

Those issues don't come into play with 94.7. And 94.7 is grandfathered as a full "B". Admit it or not, it is a New York City "B". It just has a Newark, New Jersey City of License, just as WHTZ.

Yes and no.  It's a full B.  But it's a B with a transmitter site in NJ, 12 miles west of NYC.  Period.  WHTZ was able to move to Empire for a variety of reasons.  Among them are: 1) the rules were different then and 2) it mitigated a lot of interference with the 100.3 in Philly.

Just because it transmits in roughly the same area doesn't mean that it automatically waives all rules and qualifies to get plugged in to the ERI master on Empire.  There are other stations on the dial that also have protection from WFME.

I think the ones on channel 6 that are already operating as radio stations will probably continue to do so until the deadline.  Don't think I'd be starting a new one though.

And that deadline could come any day.  The LPTV's are of limited value, especially now, except for ones that can be used as radio stations.  NPR is lobbying pretty heavily to get an analog sunset on LPTV, because it gives a lot of member stations a noisy neighbor at the top of the dial!

[LA_Guy]

Scott, I predict that 94.7 WILL move to Empire as a full non-directional class B FM station.

94.3 in Smithtown already receives tons of destructive co-channel interference from stations in New Haven, CT and Asbury Park, NJ. All the new owner of 94.7 has to do is show that their second adjacent interference happens where you can't get Smithtown anyway and the FCC will grant a waiver.

94.7 in Enfield will not be a factor due to the fact that they are a grandfathered station with facilities far below maximum class B due to 94.5 in Boston.