Teaching Programs

[rbrucecarter5]

Both Ed Young and Joel Osteen are "faith preachers" in the vein of name it claim it doctrine so they are the exact examples of people we would never want to present any sort of teaching on our stations.

Take another listen.  There is nobody on this board more conservative and fundamentalist than I am.  I looked to see if they were preaching heresy in any way.  They are not.  Anybody who says different has never listened to them, and doesn't know what they are talking about.

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Take another listen.  There is nobody on this board more conservative and fundamentalist than I am.  I looked to see if they were preaching heresy in any way.  They are not. 

They may be "conservative and fundamentalist" but it is possible they don't meet the definition of "orthodox".

In the world of Christianity we have all these on-going battles over semantics.  (on-going... as in 2,000 years!)

[rbrucecarter5]

Take another listen.  There is nobody on this board more conservative and fundamentalist than I am.  I looked to see if they were preaching heresy in any way.  They are not. 

They may be "conservative and fundamentalist" but it is possible they don't meet the definition of "orthodox".

In the world of Christianity we have all these on-going battles over semantics.  (on-going... as in 2,000 years!)

If "orthodox" means preaching down to people that they are evil, bad, tainted, nasty, need to be broken like a horse and go down weeping in repentence at the alter in front of the church, where Reverend Bigbottom and his deacons will be there to pick up the pieces ----- then yeah, they are not orthodox.  But any church using that approach these days is dying.  People have heard it all before.  And they do NOT like or respond to it.  Back 50 years again to Haley Mills and her splendid performance on Pollyanna - exposing the utter futility of the sin and death method of preaching.  People are facing so much negativity and hatred and bullying these days.  They don't need the church to add to that.  The basics of the faith - sin / death on the cross / repentance remain unchanged.  But the church can place emphasis on different parts of the gospel message.  "Gospel" means "Good News" after all.  What do people hear that is "good news" from a fire and brimstone pulpit?  I am firmly convinced that most people become Christians because they see something positive, uplifting, sincere, honest, or otherwise good in people of faith living the life style.  People who invite them to church, where all the preacher does is issue the invitation - the work has already been laid down by the Holy Spirit, they are ripe for the harvest anyway.   It isn't necessary to break people like you break a horse so it can be ridden.  We are supposed to be SALT of the earth, salt makes people thirsty - in this case thirsty for living water.  Ed Young Jr. and Joel Osteen have not abandoned the basics - they still preach the repentance method on occasion.  But most of their messages are geared towards the goodness of God to those who trust him and live by faith in Him and His word.  There are a lot of scriptures with promises and benefits for the Christian believer.  We have unprecidented authority and power in His name, and the basic message of a Fellowship or a Lakewood is that we have not because we ask not.  Of course the answer to selfish prayers is resoundingly NO.  But if we ask for anything is HIS name (read that HIS will), it will be done.  Even then the answer may be "wait - I have an even better idea".  But we are promised joy (not happiness), and it is high time churches start preaching this.  After all, Christians can only get saved once - what do we do with the faith after that?  Your average church preaches salvation 52 weeks a year, and offers no preaching about how to live after that.  So the mature believer like me is left without instruction - until I found Fellowship and Lakewood.  Maybe it is not for everybody, and that is OK.  But if you are a mature Christian believer wanting to walk in the victory over satan and have a real impact on the world around you, and live a victorious, joyful, Christ centered walk, then Fellowship and Lakewood are perfect because I am growing more spiritually now than I did in the previous 30 years.  I'll compare any standard you want - hours in the Bible per week, hours in prayer per week, scriptures memorized, people reached, missionaries in the field, people fed through benevolence, or the tired old weekly attendance - against any old gloom and doom church.  And I bet Lakewood and Fellowship people come out on top every single time.  People flock to where God is moving, and this is where he is moving.  Best get into HIS mindset and will, because if you don't, your ministry will be outside of His will and will whither and die.  If I am doing something where it is clear God's hand of blessing has left, even if it was clearly His will and way of doing things in the past, I need to abandon it because it was just for a time and season.  And that time has passed.  I need to re-direct where God is moving, or be left behind.  So should you. 

Getting too tense here again - I'm back to lurker mode.  See everybody when the pharisees calm down.  Ichabod.

[nitnitr]

I hear the comments from the previous posts, and appreciate them all.

As for teaching programs, look to Media Solutions in Colorado Springs for a source of programming. Also check out Westar (more music oriented, but a thought) for programming as well. Look also at Crown Ministries for Christian financial advice programs.

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

We are supposed to be SALT of the earth, salt makes people thirsty - in this case thirsty for living water.

Good example of how we subdivide into our own little cocoons of faith.  I could go down the street and start a whole new church around the interpretation:  "The value of salt is as a preservative.  We are the salt of the earth and thus it is our task to keep the world from spoiling, from becomming rotten."  I don't thank that makes one of us right and the other one wrong.

Best get into HIS mindset and will, because if you don't, your ministry will be outside of His will and will whither and die.  If I am doing something where it is clear God's hand of blessing has left, even if it was clearly His will and way of doing things in the past, I need to abandon it because it was just for a time and season.  And that time has passed.  I need to re-direct where God is moving, or be left behind.  So should you. 

Getting too tense here again - I'm back to lurker mode.  See everybody when the pharisees calm down.  Ichabod.

Some people find their calling, their ministry in being an usher at the church.  Others stand in pulpits and preach.  Some look after the teaching needs of a Sunday School class.

Some personal missions are very quiet, very much in the background, almost un-noticed by the masses.  Some personal missions are very public, very open to observation, criticism and sometimes a bit of rowdy give-and-take.  Playing in "The Verbal Sandbox" of Internet forums can be a little more rowdy and contentious than some people have the stomach for.  I have a feeling you could have come back and ask some of us to explain ourselves,  to make what we are saying a bit clearer.  Then all who read could learn something new,  maybe have something re-enforced.  My on-line persona as GRC runs anywhere from rowdy to comical, from pompous to timid curiosity.  I know I have to be ready for some flames once in awhile but I also get the pleasure now and then of having someone say:  "Thanks... I never thought of it that way before."

Bruce:  If you are going to hang out here in the cyber-space version of the old "court house square spitt'n and wittl'n club"  learn to accept the fact that when you go swimming your hair is going to get wet, and maybe some water in your ears.  You don't make friends when you write a paragraph-lecture and then before we can ask you what you really were trying to say,  you jump in and announce you are going to take your marbles and go home because you are above our lowly ways.  You CAN be 'the salt of the earth' and contribute to being a preservative to our culture.  Or...  you can quietly sit home and drink a lot of water.   

[rbrucecarter5]

Bruce:  If you are going to hang out here in the cyber-space version of the old "court house square spitt'n and wittl'n club"  learn to accept the fact that when you go swimming your hair is going to get wet, and maybe some water in your ears.  You don't make friends when you write a paragraph-lecture and then before we can ask you what you really were trying to say,  you jump in and announce you are going to take your marbles and go home because you are above our lowly ways.  You CAN be 'the salt of the earth' and contribute to being a preservative to our culture.  Or...  you can quietly sit home and drink a lot of water.   

I guess I'll jump back in for just a minute.  What I said was pretty clear, I thought.  It really pushes my button when somebody presumes to judge the ministry of somebody else.  Especially men of God like Ed Young Jr. and Joel Osteen.  I'm pretty disgusted when I hear people that have no idea what they are talking about presuming to speak judgement on their entire ministry as though their puny opinion was the last word on the validity of Fellowship and Lakewood Church.

I guess I jump out rather than get into useless arguments with people that only create division.  Other issues I could jump in on, and occasionally do are:

- Criticism of Christian rock music
- King James only-ism
- Creation so-called science
- Baptism

and half a dozen others that are definitely more of a hinderance to spreading the gospel - through radio or other means - than they are a help.  Some like the creationist prattle are a total embarrassment to the church.  Others just simply annoying to the point of being ridiculous.  Like Bible translations.  If we can't get our act together among ourselves and produce a consistent, creative, appealing format on the radio from station to station then it is no wonder Christian radio is increasingly irrelevant as a tool to reach the lost.

OK - just wanted to clear up the confusion.  I'm not afraid of discussions, I'm just tired of spitting into the wind, throwing pearls before swine, or any other metaphor you choose.  I don't have time to convince the utterly closed minded.  I've got a life, and I'm not going to waste it talking to pharisees.

[xmusicmatt]

Lakewood does a lot of good things for not only Houston but the world..  Joel has some decent messages, I have watched a few of his messages from time to time and I believe that their church does do a lot of good for people; but overall he does lean towards the "Word of Faith" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith style teaching that "God wants everyone to prosper" ..

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

OK - just wanted to clear up the confusion.  I'm not afraid of discussions, I'm just tired of spitting into the wind, throwing pearls before swine, or any other metaphor you choose.  I don't have time to convince the utterly closed minded.  I've got a life, and I'm not going to waste it talking to pharisees.

We all have certain topics where we are not very pliable, or very "elastic" and when participating in discussion,  it is hard for each of us to gauge how we are going to deal with discussion when we know we just are not going to meet someone halfway on that topic.  What I have personally worked on is developing the ability and the patience to go ahead and ask the other person to help me understand his/her position.  This gives me the opportunity to then pose some gentle questions about the arguments OTHER PEOPLE,  people not in this conversation, would argue with that position.

Just as you have great affection, respect and trust of Joel Olsteen and Ed Young,  some of the people (those you think of as Pharisees) have their rigid opposing opinion probably because they too have a hero:  their pastor, some tele-vangelist, some author.  I have a great desire to see the Christian message given great exposure among the people of the world.  And what I see happening in some of the on-line forums where head-butting arguments are taking place are people arguing who both are quoting their hero figures,  the spiritual gurus who BOTH have clay feet.

You listed four topics you are likely to jump into discussion about.  This is an example of how differently we all see things.  Those are four topics I am likely to avoid if possible.  I take the view that until people find they have some agreement on other theological issues,  which gives them some amount of respect for each other,  those four topics are very likely to end up in heat and smoke.  For instance,  in two thousand years we have not closed the gap on the topic of baptism.  Some immerse, some pour, some sprinkle.   Babies in some cases,  adults only in other cases.  Once in a lifetime in some cases,  as often as one finds the need to (repeat) repent in other cases.  What is there to gain in spending 30 minutes or 20 forum messages trying to nail down a topic that we have wrestled with for 2000 years?

I am pleased that you chose to return to the conversation for at least a little bit and hope you can find it worth your while to continue as a regular contributor.

Now, here is where you can help me.  Your ultimate slam or put-down is to declare someone or some behavior as a pharisee.  It was an identifiable office, position, or maybe conduct in New Testament times.  How do you define it today.  If I am sampling various teaching programs on a radio station,  how do I identify the pharisees of today?  Should they be removed from broadcasting?  Who is the King Solomon who carries the wisdom to spot them and stop them?

[helloagain]

Hey, gang!  I should have been more specific with my definition of orthodoxy as it has recently been a debate...I guess over the last 20 years or so...sorry to be so vague, sincerely...I really didn't consider anything other than historical orthodoxy or what has pretty much been the line of orthodoxy since the first century.

Since the first century there have been two primary guidelines for orthodoxy including the Nicene Creed and the Apostle's Creed. Those are what we are basing our search on.

I am not a theologian not trying to be one.  I can hardly spell Hebrew let alone read it though I do like the hot dogs.

For my purposes and for the purposes of what I am part of building it is my role, my duty, my job to make JUDGEMENT CALLS or discern what content we include and do not. I can say from the outset that in no way shape or form are we spending time on the air hunting for heretics. We are not taking pot shots at ministers, ministries and not getting involved in politics of any sort, be it the church or the government.

I stand by my perspective, opinion, judgement of the ministries of Ed Young and Joel Osteen. That doesn't mean that those organizations aren't serving humanity in some capacity or that they are worthless it does mean that based on the teachings they present from the pulpit where they are sharing the word of God, I am at odds with them. I don't believe they are preaching orthodoxy and I do not think they are sharing the gospel...does it mean I think these guys are bad people?  not at all, Joel Osteen seems to be incredibly kind and gentle and a very sincere person, I still don't agree with what he teaches and no matter how much I like or want to like a person who is in error, there is no way I will put them on the station to further spread the one off, perverted message of the gospel. 

Bruce, I wasn't trying to call you out. My opinion is polar opposite of yours but it is not because I am closed minded. From my perch on the tree, I actually do have an idea what I am talking about which is based on my own personal experiences and also the experiences of several others who have been similarly impacted by the "Word - Faith" doctrine. My experiences were not gained because I was trying to find fault but simply because of the way things shook out...there was no "gotcha" spirit about it. I was not in opposition to this doctrine looking to refute it. It was just my personal experience.

I am not their ultimate judge and I am not damning them to hell or presuming to do so. I am not of the opinion that if you like those guys we can't be friends and find other points of agreement in the Bible and every day life.  I am telling you as the one who has been charged with presenting an accurate and fair presentation of the gospel, they will not be included in our lineup.

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Since the first century there have been two primary guidelines for orthodoxy including the Nicene Creed and the Apostle's Creed. Those are what we are basing our search on.

I am not a theologian not trying to be one.  I can hardly spell Hebrew let alone read it though I do like the hot dogs.

I appreciate your humor in "confessing" that you are not a Greek scholar.  I am not either, but I hang out now and then with some people who are.  I just finished recording four lectures by a young man who is now earning his PhD in "Hebrew Bible".   In a few years I expect to see him in the employment of a Seminary where he is likely to spend the rest of his life training future ministers.

You are not quite "on target" in saying that orthodoxy (as you define it) is based on two creeds from the first century.  The Nicene Creed is a Fourth Century product from 325 A.D.  The Apostle's Creed is also a Fourth Century product from a Council in 390 A.D.   The scholars will, however,  point out that it was built on a foundation of The Creed of Hippolytus dating back to the Third Century....  215 A.D.

Now,  before the Forum Moderator comes and raps us all on the knuckles,  I would suggest that this is probably not the correct theater for this discussion to play out.  As I mentioned before,  at one time I managed a "teaching" style station that appealed to the Christian Community.  Here is what really frosts a lot of people.  They show up at the dial to take in a steady diet of "Teaching" and pretty soon they realize that far too many broadcasters are carrying on a ministry and laying out the elements of how this theological thing called Christianity has been delivered to us in the 21st Century, are like you.  They can hardly spell Hebrew let alone read it...  and maybe they do like hot dogs.  And if you listen to such a station for 4 to 6 hours, your head will spin with the conflict that exists between teachers.  But they will ALL tell you that THEY are the one teaching the true Gospel.

It seems that "Orthodox Christianity" is a banner, a cloak, that is clung to by people who are within the narrow segment of the church known as the Reformed.  Other faith groups make use of the two Creeds that you have cited, but for the most part will find other terminology than "Orthodox" to define who they are.

Maybe you could have written in your first post:  I am looking for programs where the teaching is consistent with Presbyterians who refer to themselves as "Orthodox" in their teachings.

rbrucecarter5:  Would that have helped you to understand his request better?