Comcast is ending cable without cable box

[willdav713]

The days of timeshifting soaps for the retired folk are over, unless they spend $$$ on the cable co's DVR service, which one malfunction the program is erased for good.

How's that? Don't all cable boxes have some type of analog output, either a channel 3/4 RF output or composite that can be fed into the inputs of a VCR?

Can't say for sure, but it's likely that if the cable co. doesn't want something recorded except by their own equipment, the cable box will produce a "Macrovision" signal on its analog outputs, which causes most VCR's, DVD-R's, etc. not to record. (Devices to remove Macrovision used to be sold, but they were essentially outlawed by the DMCA in '98.)

Once again, it occurs to me that over-the-air converter boxes don't output a Macrovision signal

YES it does.  My Panasonic DMZ47V QAM tuner DVD Recorder/VCR won't let me record onto VHS DT OTA signals.  When I try to record the PBS Create Channel on VHS tape it is scrambled and that is with an 1986 Canon VCR VRHF-720, and on a 2003 model Sony VCR.  U-verse uses Digital Broadcast flags on several of thier channels, a Sima Box is required to bypass it.

[willdav713]

The days of timeshifting soaps for the retired folk are over, unless they spend $$$ on the cable co's DVR service, which one malfunction the program is erased for good.

How's that? Don't all cable boxes have some type of analog output, either a channel 3/4 RF output or composite that can be fed into the inputs of a VCR?

In reality, the days of soaps are almost over.

True but what if you want to record one program while watching another?  You have to set the Timer Record to channel 3 or 4, and have to change the channel on the box for another program on another network.

[JHBrandt]

Can't say for sure, but it's likely that if the cable co. doesn't want something recorded except by their own equipment, the cable box will produce a "Macrovision" signal on its analog outputs, which causes most VCR's, DVD-R's, etc. not to record. (Devices to remove Macrovision used to be sold, but they were essentially outlawed by the DMCA in '98.)

Once again, it occurs to me that over-the-air converter boxes don't output a Macrovision signal

YES it does.  My Panasonic DMZ47V QAM tuner DVD Recorder/VCR won't let me record onto VHS DT OTA signals.  When I try to record the PBS Create Channel on VHS tape it is scrambled and that is with an 1986 Canon VCR VRHF-720, and on a 2003 model Sony VCR.  U-verse uses Digital Broadcast flags on several of their channels, a Sima Box is required to bypass it.

If you're getting your stations via U-Verse, it's certainly possible that AT&T has flagged them non-recordable even if they're also available over the air (kinda dickish of them if they're doing that, but not very surprising), and your Panasonic QAM tuner is respecting AT&T's flags and sending out the Macrovision signal. Macrovision will cause most old VCRs to produce an unwatchable recording; newer ones may simply refuse to record at all instead.

If Create is available over the air (it isn't in DFW, but might be where you live), try an antenna+converter box instead of U-Verse+QAM tuner and see if you can record it on your VCRs. Then you can tell AT&T what to go do with themselves

How's that? Don't all cable boxes have some type of analog output, either a channel 3/4 RF output or composite that can be fed into the inputs of a VCR?

True but what if you want to record one program while watching another?  You have to set the Timer Record to channel 3 or 4, and have to change the channel on the box for another program on another network.

Correct; you would need two receivers in order to watch one program while recording another, and I don't know of any VCRs with built-in digital receivers (although to be fair, I haven't been looking for one and wouldn't be too surprised if some exist).

A converter box counts as a receiver, but it only receives over-the-air signals from an antenna, not QAM signals from your cable co. So if you want to record something available over-the-air while watching something else on cable, it'll solve your problem; but if you want to record a cable-only channel and the cable co. doesn't want you to, you're screwed

[TheRover]

My Time Warner Cable uses --4-- channels for each of the major networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, & FOX).

My gripe, is that gradma should be able to have BASIC cable to see the main local channels and what they offer, News & Weather.

Basic basic USED to be offered, for Year after Year for around $10 a month. Now, since the swap with Comcast, Time Warner has managed to jack up the Basic basic rate to almost $20, and they've removed some channels to boot!

I'll bet the high end cable package rates have not Doubled in the last 7-8 years....

Stick it to the people who can least afford it.... And keep those ruthless stockholders satisfied !!!!!

If your grandma is interested in only the local channels, perhaps now is a good time to consider dropping cable and returning to over-the-air reception via an antenna.

As cities grew and more folks moved out to suburbs, many got basic cable because they just couldn't get decent reception of their local broadcast stations. But now that local broadcasting is digital, that may not be the problem it once was.

Of course, receiving digital broadcasts has its own problems. For most viewers, just putting up a loop + rabbit ears won't cut it anymore. Worse, there are a lot of rip-off antennas being sold that won't necessarily receive all your local stations. In some cases, you may just have to pay someone a few hundred $$ to get set up with a decent outdoor antenna.

But once you do get it working, your reception will be perfect, and your monthly cost will be $0.00. I suspect even the most cash-strapped viewers can afford that.

I suspect that the model of local cable govt access channels, needs to also move onto the digital sub channels, in that way, grandma can drop cable, and still see the local city council meetings and other programming. Time Warner has moved the local cable govt channels up to channels that require a box (all for bandwith reasons...).

The upfront costs are there.... Maybe that should be Govt, rebate program worth having. But, the cable and satellite companies would frown on that.... really making OTA digital TV reception availabe to most.... The Horror ! !

[Mediafrog+]

I suspect that the model of local cable govt access channels, needs to also move onto the digital sub channels, in that way, grandma can drop cable, and still see the local city council meetings and other programming.

Not going to happen, as every government entity in a station's viewing area would demand a subchannel.  And how many people actually watch local government access channels?  And should your tax dollars be paying for it?  The internet is a better distribution model.  And of course, you can always show up in person at a city council meeting.

[JHBrandt]

I suspect that the model of local cable govt access channels, needs to also move onto the digital sub channels, in that way, grandma can drop cable, and still see the local city council meetings and other programming.

Not going to happen, as every government entity in a station's viewing area would demand a subchannel.  And how many people actually watch local government access channels?  And should your tax dollars be paying for it?  The internet is a better distribution model.  And of course, you can always show up in person at a city council meeting.

I dunno; it seems like there's plenty of LP bandwidth going to waste right now, and this would be a good way to fill it. Internet distribution is also a good idea, but the two aren't mutually exclusive.

But you're right about cost. If leasing time on an LPTV station costs more than a minimal amount, few cities are going to spend scarce tax dollars on it. Low-power radio would probably be cheaper, and almost as good for those city council meetings.

[willdav713]

Can't say for sure, but it's likely that if the cable co. doesn't want something recorded except by their own equipment, the cable box will produce a "Macrovision" signal on its analog outputs, which causes most VCR's, DVD-R's, etc. not to record. (Devices to remove Macrovision used to be sold, but they were essentially outlawed by the DMCA in '98.)

Once again, it occurs to me that over-the-air converter boxes don't output a Macrovision signal

YES it does.  My Panasonic DMZ47V QAM tuner DVD Recorder/VCR won't let me record onto VHS DT OTA signals.  When I try to record the PBS Create Channel on VHS tape it is scrambled and that is with an 1986 Canon VCR VRHF-720, and on a 2003 model Sony VCR.  U-verse uses Digital Broadcast flags on several of their channels, a Sima Box is required to bypass it.

If you're getting your stations via U-Verse, it's certainly possible that AT&T has flagged them non-recordable even if they're also available over the air (kinda dickish of them if they're doing that, but not very surprising), and your Panasonic QAM tuner is respecting AT&T's flags and sending out the Macrovision signal. Macrovision will cause most old VCRs to produce an unwatchable recording; newer ones may simply refuse to record at all instead.

If Create is available over the air (it isn't in DFW, but might be where you live), try an antenna+converter box instead of U-Verse+QAM tuner and see if you can record it on your VCRs. Then you can tell AT&T what to go do with themselves

I finally was able to record Create which is available on the DTV subchannels not on cable or U-Verse, but only on my Canon VR-HF800 Pro VCR which are rare and no longer made. 

How's that? Don't all cable boxes have some type of analog output, either a channel 3/4 RF output or composite that can be fed into the inputs of a VCR?

True but what if you want to record one program while watching another?  You have to set the Timer Record to channel 3 or 4, and have to change the channel on the box for another program on another network.

Correct; you would need two receivers in order to watch one program while recording another, and I don't know of any VCRs with built-in digital receivers (although to be fair, I haven't been looking for one and wouldn't be too surprised if some exist).

A converter box counts as a receiver, but it only receives over-the-air signals from an antenna, not QAM signals from your cable co. So if you want to record something available over-the-air while watching something else on cable, it'll solve your problem; but if you want to record a cable-only channel and the cable co. doesn't want you to, you're screwed

If you have a Sima CopyThis you can. But you have to buy one for every device.

[willdav713]

I suspect that the model of local cable govt access channels, needs to also move onto the digital sub channels, in that way, grandma can drop cable, and still see the local city council meetings and other programming.

Not going to happen, as every government entity in a station's viewing area would demand a subchannel.  And how many people actually watch local government access channels?  And should your tax dollars be paying for it?  The internet is a better distribution model.  And of course, you can always show up in person at a city council meeting.

What if Grandma can't drive and no bus service where she lives?  I don't think every government entity would demand a subchannel but they can make a state law requiring PEG channels on DTV OTA channels or on LP TV.

I dunno; it seems like there's plenty of LP bandwidth going to waste right now, and this would be a good way to fill it. Internet distribution is also a good idea, but the two aren't mutually exclusive.

But you're right about cost. If leasing time on an LPTV station costs more than a minimal amount, few cities are going to spend scarce tax dollars on it. Low-power radio would probably be cheaper, and almost as good for those city council meetings.

When I ran for Mayor of San Antonio last year I proposed that idea.  Using PBS subchannels to air City Of San Antonio public meetings, the city can give broadcasters tax credits in return for broadcasting Council meetings. 

Also they can do it on radio.  According to the FCC, radio stations are to reserve x amount of time for non profits, and the like.  Maybe on a AM station?  Kind of like the traffic information channel on AM 1610 in San Antonio?

[JHBrandt]

Can't say for sure, but it's likely that if the cable co. doesn't want something recorded except by their own equipment, the cable box will produce a "Macrovision" signal on its analog outputs, which causes most VCR's, DVD-R's, etc. not to record. (Devices to remove Macrovision used to be sold, but they were essentially outlawed by the DMCA in '98.)

Once again, it occurs to me that over-the-air converter boxes don't output a Macrovision signal

YES it does.  My Panasonic DMZ47V QAM tuner DVD Recorder/VCR won't let me record onto VHS DT OTA signals.  When I try to record the PBS Create Channel on VHS tape it is scrambled and that is with an 1986 Canon VCR VRHF-720, and on a 2003 model Sony VCR.  U-verse uses Digital Broadcast flags on several of their channels, a Sima Box is required to bypass it.

If you're getting your stations via U-Verse, it's certainly possible that AT&T has flagged them non-recordable even if they're also available over the air (kinda dickish of them if they're doing that, but not very surprising), and your Panasonic QAM tuner is respecting AT&T's flags and sending out the Macrovision signal. Macrovision will cause most old VCRs to produce an unwatchable recording; newer ones may simply refuse to record at all instead.

If Create is available over the air (it isn't in DFW, but might be where you live), try an antenna+converter box instead of U-Verse+QAM tuner and see if you can record it on your VCRs. Then you can tell AT&T what to go do with themselves

A converter box counts as a receiver, but it only receives over-the-air signals from an antenna, not QAM signals from your cable co. So if you want to record something available over-the-air while watching something else on cable, it'll solve your problem; but if you want to record a cable-only channel and the cable co. doesn't want you to, you're screwed

If you have a Sima CopyThis you can. But you have to buy one for every device.

The CopyThis is one of those so-called "video stabilizers" that regenerates the analog vertical blanking signal, removing Macrovision in the process. You should only need one for each recording device - TVs are generally unaffected by Macrovision.

The legal status of these devices has been disputed (https://www.eff.org/cases/macrovision-v-sima). Personally I agree with EFF that the CopyThis is legal, but until the courts agree, devices like these will be expensive and hard to find, as Macrovision can threaten to sue the sellers.

[willdav713]

Can't say for sure, but it's likely that if the cable co. doesn't want something recorded except by their own equipment, the cable box will produce a "Macrovision" signal on its analog outputs, which causes most VCR's, DVD-R's, etc. not to record. (Devices to remove Macrovision used to be sold, but they were essentially outlawed by the DMCA in '98.)

Once again, it occurs to me that over-the-air converter boxes don't output a Macrovision signal

YES it does.  My Panasonic DMZ47V QAM tuner DVD Recorder/VCR won't let me record onto VHS DT OTA signals.  When I try to record the PBS Create Channel on VHS tape it is scrambled and that is with an 1986 Canon VCR VRHF-720, and on a 2003 model Sony VCR.  U-verse uses Digital Broadcast flags on several of their channels, a Sima Box is required to bypass it.

If you're getting your stations via U-Verse, it's certainly possible that AT&T has flagged them non-recordable even if they're also available over the air (kinda dickish of them if they're doing that, but not very surprising), and your Panasonic QAM tuner is respecting AT&T's flags and sending out the Macrovision signal. Macrovision will cause most old VCRs to produce an unwatchable recording; newer ones may simply refuse to record at all instead.

If Create is available over the air (it isn't in DFW, but might be where you live), try an antenna+converter box instead of U-Verse+QAM tuner and see if you can record it on your VCRs. Then you can tell AT&T what to go do with themselves

A converter box counts as a receiver, but it only receives over-the-air signals from an antenna, not QAM signals from your cable co. So if you want to record something available over-the-air while watching something else on cable, it'll solve your problem; but if you want to record a cable-only channel and the cable co. doesn't want you to, you're screwed

If you have a Sima CopyThis you can. But you have to buy one for every device.

The CopyThis is one of those so-called "video stabilizers" that regenerates the analog vertical blanking signal, removing Macrovision in the process. You should only need one for each recording device - TVs are generally unaffected by Macrovision.

The legal status of these devices has been disputed (https://www.eff.org/cases/macrovision-v-sima). Personally I agree with EFF that the CopyThis is legal, but until the courts agree, devices like these will be expensive and hard to find, as Macrovision can threaten to sue the sellers.

And, Sima should sue Macrovision under the Lanham Act for being a monopoly! like Microsoft in the 90s.  But we need to write our elected officals on having PEG channels on Radio and/or Television to bridge the gap in the digital divide.