94.7 WFME sold to ESPN

[badjef]

Nobody is saying WFME has a bad signal. It doesn't have as competitive signal as the rest of the "20". The angle to which you refer is what I call the vector. It is the angle at which the signal reaches the radio. When it comes in from the side - as in the case with West Orange - the radio is more likely to experience multipath and that will effect the HD signal as well. If the signal is aimed down at the radio, the reverse is true. Plus, you have the added attenuation of the 94.7 signal due to the overload of the front end by the closer - and more of them - ERP's. It isn't the signal, it is the effect the other, closer, stations have on the 94.7 reception. With just the 19 commercial FM signals from Empire, they are generating an ERP of 108.6kw. So what's left of the 37kw is being squashed at the radio.

The next New York blackout and 94.7 rules the day in The City where it is.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

[DavidEduardo]

The Queens,NY zip code farthest east, at the Nassau County border, is in the Glen Oaks neighborhood.  It is 15-miles from the ESB, and 29-miles from WFME's transmitter.  The reported signal strength (dBuV/m) for ESB Class-B FMs in that Zip is 76.4, and WFME's is a still good 65.1.

Bingo.

The facts, confirmed over and over year after year, show that 80% of at work and at home FM listening occurs inside the 70 dbu signal and 95% takes place inside the 65 dbu signal.

The assumption that there is really a 65 dbu signal east of Manhattan and the "wall of highrises" is risky. My anecdotal experience is trying to listen to WCAA in a hotel at 52nd and Mad, a short walk to the ESB, and not being able to hear it at all on a high end portable unless I put the radio in the window... building do attenuate signals.

In New York, where 75% of listening is not in the car, the ability to reach all of the population with a decent signal is critical. WFME reaches the western parts well. It's not at its best in the canyons of Manhattan and much of the boroughs, and certainly is not as good to the north and the east. 

[TimeIsTight]

The angle to which you refer is what I call the vector. It is the angle at which the signal reaches the radio. When it comes in from the side - as in the case with West Orange - the radio is more likely to experience multipath and that will effect the HD signal as well. If the signal is aimed down at the radio, the reverse is true

Another way to look at the "vector" is how close to the horizon is the signal's angle?  It can be easily calculated using high school geometry and a right triangle.  The hypotenuse is your vector line, the height of the antenna above sea level (in this case) is one side of the right triangle, and the distance to the listener is the other.

Doing the calculations using the distances from the Glen Oaks neighborhood in Queens to the ESB and West Orange.

The "vector" angle from the top of the ESB 15-miles away is just over 1-degree above the horizon, while the vector angle for a signal from 800 feet high in West Orange, 29-miles away, is 0.36-degree.   As to multipath problems etc. the difference between 1-degree and 1/3-degree don't matter much.  It you were sitting on the Queens side of the East River, opposite the UN, and a mile or two from the ESB, the angle would be much steeper and it might make a difference if there were no buildings along the hypotenuse blocking the ESB view.

Plus, you have the added attenuation of the 94.7 signal due to the overload of the front end by the closer - and more of them - ERP's. It isn't the signal, it is the effect the other, closer, stations have on the 94.7 reception. With just the 19 commercial FM signals from Empire, they are generating an ERP of 108.6kw. So what's left of the 37kw is being squashed at the radio.

Again, this "signal overload" is something dependent on the close proximity of the transmitter.  To be really generous, if you are more than a mile away from the transmitter it shouldn't matter.  Don't forget that the intensity of the signal drops with the square of the distance.

Ironically, I drive within a few hundred feet of the 37-kw WFME transmitter every now and then, and only have a problem when I am very close, and tuned to a station near its dial position.  I have DXed FM from that area and had no problem getting stations in Connecticut (like WEBE), or Westchester, or even WHYY out of Philadelphia.  The transmitters at the ESB are a quarter mile up in the sky, and only 6-kw. I doubt if many people have signal overload problems from there, especially people in the outer boroughs or Jersey.  If you have a reasonably selective receiver the fact that there are multiple signals wouldn't be additive either even if you were fairly close. 

[TimeIsTight]

My anecdotal experience is trying to listen to WCAA in a hotel at 52nd and Mad, a short walk to the ESB, and not being able to hear it at all on a high end portable unless I put the radio in the window... building do attenuate signals.

Sometimes the fact that those buildings attenuate signals can be a "comforting" thing.  About 20-years ago, my office was in the NY World Financial Center across the street from the World Trade Center.  When you looked out the windows you could see the top of the North Tower with all the high power antennae for TV, radio, and who knows what else, up there.  But if you stepped back from the windows with a top quality radio in your hand, you got only static from the lights, computers etc.

It was actually nice to know that we weren't being overly irradiated with EMF from all those nearby high power transmitters thanks to all the heavy metal that surrounded and supported us, and probably a helped little by the fact that the signals were being beamed out and not down. 

The "canyons of Manhattan" can produce strange radio reception situations too.  From what listeners in those neighborhoods actually told me, some NJ FMs had better signals on the east-west side streets than the NYC ESB signals.  It seems the distant Jersey signals could shoot up some straight side streets from the Hudson River unencumbered, while the ESB signals were blocked by buildings to the north or south.

As far as the outer boroughs go, construction is often a mix of wood frame and brick private homes, like you might find anywhere, and steel and concrete apartment buildings.  And the neighborhood can change noticeably by the block.  The only way you can really tell how well a signal overcomes those challenges, and the ambient electrical noise, is to test it in each location. 

In those places where the signals are noticeably attenuated, or interference is awful, it's usually an equal opportunity situation where all the stations on the band have the same problem so it really doesn't impact the competitive situation.  A couple of exceptions might be the 50-kw directional AM's aimed at the city like WINS, or WNYM, which you can even hear clearly under the steel frame elevated electric railways in Brooklyn, where other stations disappear.

[Nick]

My anecdotal experience is trying to listen to WCAA in a hotel at 52nd and Mad, a short walk to the ESB, and not being able to hear it at all on a high end portable unless I put the radio in the window... building do attenuate signals.

Sometimes the fact that those buildings attenuate signals can be a "comforting" thing.  About 20-years ago, my office was in the NY World Financial Center across the street from the World Trade Center.  When you looked out the windows you could see the top of the North Tower with all the high power antennae for TV, radio, and who knows what else, up there.  But if you stepped back from the windows with a top quality radio in your hand, you got only static from the lights, computers etc.

It was actually nice to know that we weren't being overly irradiated with EMF from all those nearby high power transmitters thanks to all the heavy metal that surrounded and supported us, and probably a helped little by the fact that the signals were being beamed out and not down. 

The "canyons of Manhattan" can produce strange radio reception situations too.  From what listeners in those neighborhoods actually told me, some NJ FMs had better signals on the east-west side streets than the NYC ESB signals.  It seems the distant Jersey signals could shoot up some straight side streets from the Hudson River unencumbered, while the ESB signals were blocked by buildings to the north or south.

As far as the outer boroughs go, construction is often a mix of wood frame and brick private homes, like you might find anywhere, and steel and concrete apartment buildings.  And the neighborhood can change noticeably by the block.  The only way you can really tell how well a signal overcomes those challenges, and the ambient electrical noise, is to test it in each location. 

In those places where the signals are noticeably attenuated, or interference is awful, it's usually an equal opportunity situation where all the stations on the band have the same problem so it really doesn't impact the competitive situation.  A couple of exceptions might be the 50-kw directional AM's aimed at the city like WINS, or WNYM, which you can even hear clearly under the steel frame elevated electric railways in Brooklyn, where other stations disappear.

It was strange how in Battery Park I could hear WPRB 103.3 almost as strong as 103.5 KTU, despite the fact that KTU has IBUZ. I couldn't see Empire, but there was only water between Battery Park and NJ. I could also pick up a trace of 93.7 WSTW from Wilmington, DE because WNYC's IBUZ was off that day. Mix 106.1 from Philly also came in.

Must have been the combination of the buildings blocking a direct path to Empire and the same buildings reflecting signals from the southwest.

[DavidEduardo]

As far as the outer boroughs go, construction is often a mix of wood frame and brick private homes, like you might find anywhere, and steel and concrete apartment buildings.  And the neighborhood can change noticeably by the block.  The only way you can really tell how well a signal overcomes those challenges, and the ambient electrical noise, is to test it in each location. 

But, in many places the low reception angle (I like Jeff's "vector" term here) means the signal has to go through many, many houses... full of wires, pipes, and even foil covered insulation if retrofitted.

Again, the practical minimum for in-home and at-work usage is around 65 to 68 dbu... meaning that, with a degree of attenuation, signals below that level are going to be very limited options for listeners.

In those places where the signals are noticeably attenuated, or interference is awful, it's usually an equal opportunity situation where all the stations on the band have the same problem so it really doesn't impact the competitive situation. 

The result there in today's world is that people will listen to web streams or stations with better signals... thus the success of "smaller" Long Island stations in the shadow of NYC stations.

The ESB stations have 65's that just ding Suffolk, get about 75% of the population of Westchester, and just get parts of Morris, Somerset and Monmouth counties. The car radio reception extends farther out, so in the suburbs the ESB stations benefit from higher in-car usage in the areas where in-home is pretty ragged.

So, WFME is at a double disadvantage for being off the center of population and, at the same time, shadowed by a high density of buildings and houses in the path to much of the population.

[badjef]

As far as the outer boroughs go, construction is often a mix of wood frame and brick private homes, like you might find anywhere, and steel and concrete apartment buildings.  And the neighborhood can change noticeably by the block.  The only way you can really tell how well a signal overcomes those challenges, and the ambient electrical noise, is to test it in each location. 

But, in many places the low reception angle (I like Jeff's "vector" term here) means the signal has to go through many, many houses... full of wires, pipes, and even foil covered insulation if retrofitted.

Again, the practical minimum for in-home and at-work usage is around 65 to 68 dbu... meaning that, with a degree of attenuation, signals below that level are going to be very limited options for listeners.

In those places where the signals are noticeably attenuated, or interference is awful, it's usually an equal opportunity situation where all the stations on the band have the same problem so it really doesn't impact the competitive situation.

The result there in today's world is that people will listen to web streams or stations with better signals... thus the success of "smaller" Long Island stations in the shadow of NYC stations.

The ESB stations have 65's that just ding Suffolk, get about 75% of the population of Westchester, and just get parts of Morris, Somerset and Monmouth counties. The car radio reception extends farther out, so in the suburbs the ESB stations benefit from higher in-car usage in the areas where in-home is pretty ragged.

So, WFME is at a double disadvantage for being off the center of population and, at the same time, shadowed by a high density of buildings and houses in the path to much of the population.

At the risk of making this sound like a mutual admiration society, I think David finally hit it. WFME is off the spindle. Being 14 miles from every other signal, leaves it as the odd man out. New York is unique in as much as all of the signals originate from one center, except one. Even the little guy at 105.9 is there. The people in Essex County have signal to spare, move it to Empire, they will still have reception, but it would pick up that additional population in Queens that might have just the little more push needed.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

[XCountry285]

if they're going to go with alternative or country I'd say stay in NJ. It's gonna just be a station much like DHA which is heard in most of nyc metro but not in the city as well

[TimeIsTight]

With all due respect, the fact that WFME is "off the spindle" should be obvious from the get-go.  The New York Radio Market is essentially designed according to the reach of Class-B FM stations from the top of the ESB. Just compare a signal map to an official market map.  And West Orange is 15-miles west, meaning it can't offer an equivalent signal to the east leaving the shortfall around Levittown. That was always a given.

As far as the "vectors" go, as mentioned, even in high-angle, close-proximity to the ESB, Manhattan, the signal is still blocked by buildings most of the time, and sometimes when you can "see" the ESB you can't "hear" the signal.

If you do the math, even at five miles from the ESB, the top of it will appear only 3-degrees above the horizon, and at 28-miles away WFME's signal will come in at 1/3 of a degree. Either way, that signal is going to have to plow through nearby buildings, and the FCC accounted for that difference in the math, by giving WFME 37-kw against 6-kw from the ESB.

 (don't forget straight up is 90-degrees, so 3-degrees above flat, or a fraction of 1-degree is still very low, and the shadows will be about the same)

Somewhere, prospective buyers have come up with numbers to justify exactly how much less the West Orange signal is worth than a full ESB signal, and how much they are willing to pay anyway.  Although the last few ESB signals sold have had their actual prices paid masked by being parts of larger and more complicated transactions, it will be interesting to see the value of the WFME signal as measured by the winning bidder.  We'll probably never know how many "potential" bidders were turned off because the signal wasn't "perfect" but it's probably not a big fraction of all potential bidders.  

[ai4i]

An exciting thread to be sure, but I need to repeat this experience I am having in Miami Beach.
A small number of FM stations are southwest of me, beyond the third largest metropolitan skyline in the US, in Downtown Miami.
Miami Beach also has some fairly tall builtings.
Maps invariably show that WDNA, WKCP, WVUM, and WRTO have good signals here, but they are all useless with multipath in moving vehicles.
Go north on the beach or go west of downtown Miami, and most become absolutely solid.
The weakest of them in other locations sounds better in moving vehicles than the strongest in South Beach.
Due to the proximity of WFME, they will get into Manhattan more strongly than those stations in southwest Dade County get into Miami Beach, but multipath is still multipath, plus we only have two stations downtown, our major cluster of sixteen "C"s is more than a dozen miles away.