Rochester Numbers Winter '12

[SirRoxalot]

So, talk isn't doing as well in NYC as it is in most other markets. That's nothing new, and hardly indicative of a new trend. It's not like a new FM talker came in an took over. Maybe people in NYC are just oversaturated with news.

Ditto Dallas. WBAP is actually up in the last book. No FM talker in sight. Same with KTRH in Houston. AM Talker up, but not in the top 10.

Everybody looks at DC with two talk stations at the top - and both FMs. Well, is it the fact that they're FMs, or the fact that American University and Hubbard are just investing in better product? Yeah, everybody wants an FM talker so they can emulate them. How many CC or Cumulus stations are willing to make the investment in staff that WAMU or WTOP make?

There are still a ton of markets with an AM news/talker in the top 3. WHAM is still #3, but support is eroding because the product is eroding. CC could put them on FM, but that won't make a bit of difference if the programming doesn't appeal to a younger audience. WBEN in Buffalo proves that - as does WGR, which DOES get 25-54 men with sports programming.

It ain't the band as much as it's the programming, and gutting the programming is costing listeners. It will cost WHAM more revenue than they've saved in salaries - just as Citadel did before their collapse, and as Cumulus is doing in several markets.

[TheBigA]

So, talk isn't doing as well in NYC as it is in most other markets.

That's not what I said.  But you know that.

Just two years ago, there were four AM talk stations in the Top 10.  Now there are none.  The investment in the content hasn't changed.  These stations are still all live and local.  But they're not getting the ratings they once were.  Just like WHAM.

How many CC or Cumulus stations are willing to make the investment in staff that WAMU or WTOP make?

I don't know, but I can tell you that CBS has just invested a ton of money in a live & local news staff in DC with terrble results.  In Houston, Radio One has invested a ton in live & local news with terrible results.  And we already know about Merlin.  So there is no automatic pot of gold by investing in programming.

[Bob1370]

"CBS has just invested a ton of money in a live & local news staff in DC with terrble results."

The problem with that station isn't a lack of demand for live local news in DC, or even any inherent flaw with what it offers--it's that another station in Washington, WTOP, has been doing the same thing so well under three different owners (Post-Newsweek, Bonneville and now Hubbard) for the last 40+ years, first on AM and then on FM, that it dominates the entire market. The next-strongest spoken-word format station is noncomm news/talker WAMU, another heritage station which also has full market coverage and a strong mix of NPR and local programming (although since NPR originates in DC, you might say nearly everything they air is locally produced). 

Me-too stations always struggle against really good competition, especially if that competition is firmly entrenched with a long positive history in the market. If a heritage station slips, it should start to try to improve its position by looking within and seeing what it could be doing better.

[TheBigA]

Me-too stations always struggle against really good competition,

That's not the case in Houston.  There has been a huge hole for news in the #7 market since KTRH has focused on conservative talk.  They let go a lot of news people, and Radio One hired them for a 24/7 local news station.  After 3 months, they have a .8 share.  Not a huge endorsement for news in a major market.

The big story today is Cumulus has hired 8 former CNN radio staffers for a local all-news station in Atlanta.  Yes, WSB does some local news, but not 24/7.  And the emphasis is on their talk talent, not on-demand news.  It will be interesting to see if they make good on their investment.

[SirRoxalot]

So, in Houston a Class C-1 FM isn't doing well against an entrenched 50KW AM. I guess it's the programming, not the band, huh?

[TheBigA]

So, in Houston a Class C-1 FM isn't doing well against an entrenched 50KW AM. I guess it's the programming, not the band, huh?

So investing in great local programming doesn't really matter?  Then WHAM is doing the right thing.  Thanks.

[SirRoxalot]

How long have you been in radio? Three months is a fair test? With what kind of promotional support? And how does the product sound? Hiring former staffers from one station doesn't mean that the programming is right. WHICH former staffers? 

Puh-lease. At least try to make sense. WHAM has lost audience because they've gutted the programming. It's got nothing to do with not having an FM. At least try to stay on the same side of your specious arguement.

[TheBigA]

How long have you been in radio? Three months is a fair test? With what kind of promotional support? And how does the product sound? Hiring former staffers from one station doesn't mean that the programming is right. WHICH former staffers? 

What do you always tell me about Buffalo?  I say the same with you about Houston.  Your point is that investing in great local programming will lead to increased audience.  I give you examples where it's not the case.  Now you're nit picking because I'm right.  "It's the signal."  "Only three months."  "How much promotion?"  Move to Houston, and you'll get your answers.  Another approach would be to surmise that people in Houston don't care about local news.  But the fact is that a radio company invested a lot of money in local programming, and it's not paying off.  You can come up with all the excuses you want, but it doesn't change the main fact.

It's not like you can't go from worst to first in three months.  CBS just did it with a country station in Minneapolis.  How much did they invest in local talent?  Not one dime.  It's all unhosted hits.  But it worked.  And that's all that matters.

[JustPastBuffalo]

It's not like you can't go from worst to first in three months.  CBS just did it with a country station in Minneapolis.  How much did they invest in local talent?  Not one dime.  It's all unhosted hits.  But it worked.  And that's all that matters.

You're equating a music intensive format with news-talk or all news? Certainly a person of your breadth of experience and acumen knows this is like comparing apples to oranges.

[SirRoxalot]

How about if you talked about markets where you actually KNEW the answers, instead of posting on dozens of different boards and pretending to have some local knowledge? You keep trying to make sweeping generalizations, and end up contradicting yourself because radio is a LOCAL product, and markets differ. What's true in one market isn't true in another for a variety of reasons, which is why corporate cookie-cutter radio isn't bringing along a new generation of listeners.

Young people these days are hip to slick. They don't want slick, they want real, and out-of-town syndication and VT generally don't fill that bill. And, yes, there are exceptions because some markets either are different, or there's no other choice, and my syndication is better than your syndication.

Can you take a station from worst-to-first in 3 months? Maybe, depending on the market and the competition. Can you keep it there for a couple of years? Maybe, depending on the market and the competition. Jack made a splash, then sank like a rock. Remember, a splash means that you've got to fool some of the people some of the time.

I have no idea what happened in Minnesota. Unlike you, I admit that I have no idea what happened in Minnesota. And neither do you.