The Brew

[JustPastBuffalo]

Selling the naming rights to the station's basketball, bowling or softball team: The Genny Pounders.

[Scott Fybush]

If they're serious about making those hosts live and local rather than canned and tracked from corporate HQ,

By the way, there are no canned hosts at CC corporate HQ.  That's how NPR works.  Centralized radio from DC.

CC uses actual local DJs from their 840 owned stations, and shares them with other stations.  Not isolated in some corporate office.

I count a whopping seven hours of daily programming originating from NPR HQ: two hours (rolled over) of Morning Edition (though as much as 15 minutes of content each hour is originated locally, at least in Rochester and Buffalo, and a big chunk of the national content comes from NPR West in LA), two hours of Talk of the Nation, two hours of All Things Considered, one hour of Tell Me More. Diane Rehm comes from a member station, and so do Fresh Air, On Point, Car Talk and Wait Wait.

And as you well know, since you claim to have worked in the public radio system, it's so "centralized" that another big chunk of national content doesn't come from or even through NPR at all - Marketplace, Prairie Home, The World, Whad'ya Know, Says You, just to name a few that have nothing at all to do with "centralized" NPR.

I don't know of very many Clear Channel stations, Premium Choice or otherwise, that spend part of their day clearing the prefab formats produced by Cumulus or Dial Global. Do you?

[TheBigA]

And as you well know, since you claim to have worked in the public radio system, it's so "centralized" that another big chunk of national content doesn't come from or even through NPR at all

Yep.  Very true.  It has its foundations in the regional networks that existed before NPR was created.  All of it went into hyperdrive when the satellite interconnect was created, and basically any station or producer with access to an uplink could become its own network.  Yes, I know all that.  My point was not to disparrage my former employer.  But to point out that CC doesn't originate canned shows from corporate headquesters.  Was I wrong?

I don't know of very many Clear Channel stations, Premium Choice or otherwise, that spend part of their day clearing the prefab formats produced by Cumulus or Dial Global. Do you?

No I don't.  In fact, as I've mentioned here several times, I don't know of any Cumulus stations that carry the prefab formats of Cumulus.  I find that pretty interesting.  But I don't understand the question.

[Bob1370]

Listening to The Brew just long enough to get a sense of what it's all about after Wease wraps his show, it sounded an awful lot like Entercom's Buzz 98.9 without any hosts, local or otherwise. It's tough to make any 1980-1999 centered rock format sound different from another station occupying the same territory unless you have the value added of personality and a little extra information/service content--so if they want the Brew to distinguish itself from the Buzz, they'll need a whole lineup of local hosts to take them through the midnight hour. Or maybe they should just merge the two, the way the two urban AC stations in New York just merged to make way for ESPN on FM, and call it Buzz Beer--although come to think of it, Drew Carey already came up with that concept as a running gag for his old ABC sitcom and he'd probably want compensation--he'd tell them when the price was right, that's for sure...    ;-)

[Scott Fybush]

And as you well know, since you claim to have worked in the public radio system, it's so "centralized" that another big chunk of national content doesn't come from or even through NPR at all

Yep.  Very true.  It has its foundations in the regional networks that existed before NPR was created.  All of it went into hyperdrive when the satellite interconnect was created, and basically any station or producer with access to an uplink could become its own network.  Yes, I know all that.  My point was not to disparrage my former employer.  But to point out that CC doesn't originate canned shows from corporate headquesters.  Was I wrong?

I don't know what a "headquester" is. 

But leaving the vagaries of auto-correct aside, I think it's a matter of interpretation. CC "headquarters" in San Antonio is, as I understand it, purely and exclusively a business office. There's no radio being done there at all, not even the local SA stations. That's a different setup from the NPR mothership in Washington where (as you well know) there are both corporate business offices on the second floor and production facilities on 3, 4 and 5.

A lot of the operational stuff is (or at least was) done in Cincinnati, and there is (or at least was, when I was aware of it) centralized formatting coming from there. I'm less familiar with the intricacies of it since CC moved out of the old WKRC-TV building and into the "Death Star" (that's what the employees call it!) off I-71, but back when the old Jacor staff was operating from the top floor at WKRC-TV a few years ago, there was definitely a Format Lab facility up there where music formats were developed and, yes, "canned."

I don't know of very many Clear Channel stations, Premium Choice or otherwise, that spend part of their day clearing the prefab formats produced by Cumulus or Dial Global. Do you?

No I don't.  In fact, as I've mentioned here several times, I don't know of any Cumulus stations that carry the prefab formats of Cumulus.  I find that pretty interesting.  But I don't understand the question.

The question was going to your use of "centralized radio from DC." To my mind, the equivalent of a typical public station's use of syndicated content - some from NPR in DC, some fed through NPR from WBUR or WAMU or WBEZ, and some from NPR competitors such as APM and PRI - would be a commercial station owned by Clear Channel that uses Premium Choice content part of the day and Dial Global or Cumulus prefab formats in other dayparts. There is, of course, no such station.

The subtext to that question, of course, is this: the CC or Cumulus model, as I read it these days, is to keep as much content production "in house" (not physically but within the corporate structure) as possible, cutting costs to the maximum extent by voicetracking from outside the market. No, it may not be coming from the same physical facility where the CEO and CFO have their corner offices, but the goal is to make sure that everything you hear on a CC talker comes from a CC-controlled source, and everything you hear on a Cumulus talker comes from a Cumulus-controlled source.

That is (again, as you well know) emphatically not the case in public radio. At least in the news-talk arena, I can't think of a local public radio station that uses content from an outside source with the intent of making it sound locally-produced, nor can I think of a local public radio station that gets all of its national spoken-word content from a single source. (Music formats are another beast; there are certainly smaller stations out there relying on Classical 24 or JazzWorks for much or all of their broadcast days, and some make little effort to let their listeners know those hosts aren't local.)

But for news and talk, I would maintain there's a huge difference between a commercial station with "local" news and traffic coming from hundreds of miles away and a roster of national hosts all controlled by the same conglomerate that owns the station itself - and a WXXI or a WNED, using national content from multiple sources as part of a broader program lineup that also includes substantial local content that's truly local.

Or to get back to music, there's a huge difference between a Brew that has its music - all of its music, all day - programmed centrally somewhere within the CC empire, and a WXXI-FM or a WNED-FM (or even a WCMF or a WGRF) with local hosts 13 hours a day but using a variety of national sources to fill the evening and overnight hours.

Are you really claiming they're all the same thing, or just playing devil's advocate here?

[TheBigA]

back when the old Jacor staff was operating from the top floor at WKRC-TV a few years ago, there was definitely a Format Lab facility up there where music formats were developed and, yes, "canned."

I know a lot of past and present CC folks around the country and what they tell me is that the Premium Choice stuff isn't coming from any centralized place in any one part of the country.  It's not "canned," but rather non-localized live radio being done at owned stations around the country.  Lots of shows in lots of formats coming from lots of places.  It's like out-of-market VT, but more like a real-time live show, rather than just tracks dumped into a computer.  The Format Lab, as I understand it, was shut down a while ago. 

The subtext to that question, of course, is this: the CC or Cumulus model, as I read it these days, is to keep as much content production "in house" (not physically but within the corporate structure) as possible, cutting costs to the maximum extent by voicetracking from outside the market.
 

I think there’s some truth to that, but the two systems are very different.  We don’t fully know what the Cumulus system will be, because it hasn’t been executed yet.  But Cumulus has something Clear Channel doesn’t, which is a centralized radio factory in Dallas from where they can program multiple stations.  Whether they choose to use it for that purpose isn’t known.  What I do know is that Citadel never used it as a programming center for it’s stations, and so far neither has Cumulus.  What I keep hearing is they want to originate programming from stations like CC.  Turn the major market stations into production centers, rather than using the centralized “canned” factory.  Canned programming is not live.  These shows are offered as live real time radio.  The model for CC and perhaps Cumulus is Howard Stern and Imus.  Those were two local shows that didn’t change all that much when they were made available to stations around the country, and they remained hugely successful.  The music model is Rick Sklar’s SuperRadio, an idea never executed, but called for taking all the DJs from WABC (and maybe one or two from other ABC Top 40 stations) and syndicating them nationally. 

But here's my question: If you're a content creation company, like CC or Cumulus or whatever, why would you use content from other companies?  The only answer is because they provide something you don't have.  That's why CBS stations carry Rush, but why CC stations might want CBS News.  Of course, there are only a handful of companies that have those resources, and the majority of companies, like Entercom, Townsquare, Cox, and hundreds more, are either doing everything locally, or cherry picking from the syndicators.  In TV, the FCC did away with the rules that prohibited networks from getting into the program production and ownership business a long time ago.  So why shouldn't radio have that same liberty?

Are you really claiming they're all the same thing, or just playing devil's advocate here?

I see what you’re saying and not to be coy, but I think they’re different and the same.  What I keep hearing from both listeners and programmers is there are some stations that are better than others in executing certain formats.  They have the right mix of talent and music, and those stations are not only successful locally, but they’re also drawing a noticeable share of audience online through iheartradio.  I read comments from listeners on these local radio boards who talk about CC rock stations in Minneapolis or Pittsburgh being so much better than those in other places.  So why not share the stronger product with weaker markets, rather than cannibalizing the successful stations and moving the staffs to larger markets?  That’s what MSOs used to do.  But today, you can keep a successful staff in its home market, let their families stay where they’re comfortable, and share their work with broader audiences.

Now how does that work with the NPR model?  When I was with a station, we had resources that no other market had, in terms of air talent and access.  We used some of those resources through NPR National Programming, and we offered some other resources through the Extended Programming Service.  Either way, our unique material was made available to hundreds of stations to use however they saw fit.  And it wasn’t coming from the central office other than passing through the MOTC.   

From what I can see, The Brew isn’t programmed centrally anywhere.  I looked at 10 web sites from 10 Brews around the country, and each had it’s own “brew crew.”  There are common elements like the Nikki Sixx show from Premiere.  They don’t seem to be playing the same songs in the same order.  Some carry Lex & Terry in the morning.  Some don’t.  Are some using Premium Choice from somewhere?  Probably.  Are some using out of market VT?  Probably.  But the casting decisions seem to be local from what I can see.

The main thing about NPR is it isn't allowed to own radio stations.  Yet Minnesota Public Radio and WGBH can own stations and syndication companies.  It really puts NPR at a disadvantage except for world and national news.  They all get funding from a lot of the same places.  But only NPR has the name and the flagship benchmark shows.

[Scott Fybush]

back when the old Jacor staff was operating from the top floor at WKRC-TV a few years ago, there was definitely a Format Lab facility up there where music formats were developed and, yes, "canned."

I know a lot of past and present CC folks around the country and what they tell me is that the Premium Choice stuff isn't coming from any centralized place in any one part of the country.  It's not "canned," but rather non-localized live radio being done at owned stations around the country.  Lots of shows in lots of formats coming from lots of places.  It's like out-of-market VT, but more like a real-time live show, rather than just tracks dumped into a computer.  The Format Lab, as I understand it, was shut down a while ago. 

Out-of-market, yes. Real-time live? Not what I'm hearing when I listen to what I believe are stations fed by Premium Choice. What I hear sounds very generic and not often especially timely. CC may be pitching it as making more use of their best talent around the country, but it sounds to me more like another example of trying to do more with less.

Have you actually heard Premium Choice on the air anywhere, or are you just going by what CC folks are telling you?

The subtext to that question, of course, is this: the CC or Cumulus model, as I read it these days, is to keep as much content production "in house" (not physically but within the corporate structure) as possible, cutting costs to the maximum extent by voicetracking from outside the market.
 

I think there’s some truth to that, but the two systems are very different.  We don’t fully know what the Cumulus system will be, because it hasn’t been executed yet.  But Cumulus has something Clear Channel doesn’t, which is a centralized radio factory in Dallas from where they can program multiple stations.  Whether they choose to use it for that purpose isn’t known.  What I do know is that Citadel never used it as a programming center for it’s stations, and so far neither has Cumulus.  What I keep hearing is they want to originate programming from stations like CC.  Turn the major market stations into production centers, rather than using the centralized “canned” factory.  Canned programming is not live.  These shows are offered as live real time radio.  The model for CC and perhaps Cumulus is Howard Stern and Imus.  Those were two local shows that didn’t change all that much when they were made available to stations around the country, and they remained hugely successful.  The music model is Rick Sklar’s SuperRadio, an idea never executed, but called for taking all the DJs from WABC (and maybe one or two from other ABC Top 40 stations) and syndicating them nationally. 

I have no idea what Cumulus plans to do with its music-formatted stations, or with the Dallas production center. I do have a pretty good sense, I think, about where they're going with spoken-word, and the plan appears to be to bring as much in-house as possible. Huckabee may never get the following that Rush does, but he's a lot cheaper to run and they don't have to share any of the proceeds with Premiere/CC. I have the impression that the new all-news station they're launching in Atlanta at WYAY will be used to centralize some news production for smaller stations as well.

But here's my question: If you're a content creation company, like CC or Cumulus or whatever, why would you use content from other companies?  The only answer is because they provide something you don't have.  That's why CBS stations carry Rush, but why CC stations might want CBS News.  Of course, there are only a handful of companies that have those resources, and the majority of companies, like Entercom, Townsquare, Cox, and hundreds more, are either doing everything locally, or cherry picking from the syndicators.  In TV, the FCC did away with the rules that prohibited networks from getting into the program production and ownership business a long time ago.  So why shouldn't radio have that same liberty?

I was playing devil's advocate on that one. Of course a CC station isn't going to be carrying Huckabee if CC already owns Rush. You were positing a "centralized from Washington" NPR, and my point is that you know very well that public radio stations have a lot more freedom than their group-owned commercial counterparts to carry a variety of national programs, instead of being effectively limited to a single corporate source.

I don't think the distinction between "headquarters" and "various local stations" is especially relevant in that context on the commercial side. A Premium Choice jock operating from a CC local office in Minneapolis is reporting to the same bosses in San Antonio as a Premium Choice jock in Seattle or Philadelphia. But Kai Ryssdal at Marketplace in LA is reporting to a completely different set of bosses than Robert Siegel at NPR in DC, no?

I see what you’re saying and not to be coy, but I think they’re different and the same.  What I keep hearing from both listeners and programmers is there are some stations that are better than others in executing certain formats.  They have the right mix of talent and music, and those stations are not only successful locally, but they’re also drawing a noticeable share of audience online through iheartradio.  I read comments from listeners on these local radio boards who talk about CC rock stations in Minneapolis or Pittsburgh being so much better than those in other places.  So why not share the stronger product with weaker markets, rather than cannibalizing the successful stations and moving the staffs to larger markets?  That’s what MSOs used to do.  But today, you can keep a successful staff in its home market, let their families stay where they’re comfortable, and share their work with broader audiences.

To a certain extent, yes. I am certainly not trying to say that the only way to do good radio is to do it locally. I think there's lots of value to making a Don Imus or an Elvis Duran (or a Diane Rehm) available to listeners all over the country.

But at least in the CC Premium Choice model, based on what I have heard of it on the air, most of the talent isn't being used that well. They're not making anything special at the local-station level out of having national-caliber talent on the air that might be at the top of the game in another market. It's just a relatively generic voice filling time on the air and space on the station website, neither localized well nor especially nationalized well. It's certainly not living up to the ideal picture you paint of what it might be intended to become.

From what I can see, The Brew isn’t programmed centrally anywhere.  I looked at 10 web sites from 10 Brews around the country, and each had it’s own “brew crew.”  There are common elements like the Nikki Sixx show from Premiere.  They don’t seem to be playing the same songs in the same order.  Some carry Lex & Terry in the morning.  Some don’t.  Are some using Premium Choice from somewhere?  Probably.  Are some using out of market VT?  Probably.  But the casting decisions seem to be local from what I can see.

Which is pretty much what I'm saying - if they really wanted to go all "Superadio" on it, they might actually be able to make better use of the (often very good) talent they have in all those larger local stations around the country, but that's not what they're doing. "Brew" isn't a national programming feed, it's just a brand, like "Kiss" or "Mix," executed with various levels of local sophistication in various markets. At least here in Rochester so far, it's jockless after Wease leaves the air around 11. There's not enough "there" there even to render much of an opinion about it.

"Not hot. Not not. Just 'meh'," as that silly little feature in the NY Times Magazine would have it.

[TheBigA]

Have you actually heard Premium Choice on the air anywhere, or are you just going by what CC folks are telling you?

 

Both. 

I have the impression that the new all-news station they're launching in Atlanta at WYAY will be used to centralize some news production for smaller stations as well.

That was my thought too.  The CNN Radio folks they hired all know how to do that kind of thing, so why not? 

my point is that you know very well that public radio stations have a lot more freedom than their group-owned commercial counterparts to carry a variety of national programs, instead of being effectively limited to a single corporate source.

That’s because public radio stations are mostly locally or regionally owned.  Within a state system, not so much freedom.  But based on what I see in trade ads, CC stations still air Cumulus Media shows in markets where they’re available.  I don’t expect that to change.  Cumulus is just getting started in the syndication business, so they may be canceling Premiere stuff like AT40 and Rush soon.  Cumulus is more of a top-down company than CC.  But if I'm an Entercom, Cox, or Townsquare station why would I run a Cumulus show on my station?  Even if I don't compete in the format, I'm clearing my competitor's spots.  I don't understand that.

A Premium Choice jock operating from a CC local office in Minneapolis is reporting to the same bosses in San Antonio as a Premium Choice jock in Seattle or Philadelphia. But Kai Ryssdal at Marketplace in LA is reporting to a completely different set of bosses than Robert Siegel at NPR in DC, no?
 

Are you sure about that?  As I said, CC isn’t as centralized as Cumulus.  A Premium Choice jock reports to his PD in Minneapolis. And there are probably 10 people between that local PD and someone in San Antonio.  CC stations that carry Seacrest have the option to just use his hosted elements and program their own music.  I’m expecting the same thing to happen with Mario Lopez. 

It's certainly not living up to the ideal picture you paint of what it might be intended to become.

Depends on the format.  For some formats, what you describe is just fine.  Some ACs have always been pretty generic, even when the host was local.  But you can’t do that in country or urban and get away with it.  Certainly the Nikki Stixx show is great specialty programming.  Same with the Twisted Sister guy.  A lot of commercial stations miss the boat by running local VT rather than well produced specialty programming.  They miss out on a promotable show (public radio does this well) and the public misses out on quality programming that feature more than front and back announces.  Once again, this is done better in public radio.

 

"Brew" isn't a national programming feed, it's just a brand, like "Kiss" or "Mix," executed with various levels of local sophistication in various markets. At least here in Rochester so far, it's jockless after Wease leaves the air around 11. There's not enough "there" there even to render much of an opinion about it.
 

Looking at the web sites around the country, they will get jocks all day at some point.  I don’t think it matters.  As you said, we’ve had national brands for over 40 years.  No big deal.  My sense is that, for CC anyway, while there may be jocks, programming, or formats being spread around the company, the decisions on which jocks get used and what songs they play still seem to be coming from a local decision maker.  He may be the cluster OM, or there may be a dedicated PD (depending once again on the format), but the strings aren’t being pulled from all the way in San Antonio.  At least not in day to day operations.

[therealjm12]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think it's "odd" that 95.1 would make such drastic changes during a rating period?

[Jeff Michaels]

I dont get the name change. When I've listened, I havent even heard anything too much different. A few 80's songs they didnt play before. But, mostly songs between 1977 and 1993.