PPM's ( had it been around years ago )

[DavidKaye]

"Some day you'll own...
Someday you'll own...
Sooner or later you'll own Generals"

I loved the General Tire commercials because the jingle was catchy and it was the first time I'd ever heard a drum (a tympani) act as a bass, and change keys!  I thought that was awesome -- still do.  Wish I could find a copy of that jingle.

[RadioStarOne]

Jingle:  You Tube...

[DavidEduardo]

I didn't mention FM in my original post because, except for KPEN (KIOI) and KSAN 94.9, nobody was making money with FM until the 70s, maybe even as late as 1980. 

There is an interesting article about the state of FM in mid-1967 here:

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-BC/BC-1967/1967-07-31-FM-BC.pdf

Quite a few FMs were making good money by then, with KFOG and WJIB doing very well under Peter Taylor.

Another example would be Jerry Lee's very profitable station in Philadelphia as well as a large group of classical FMs such as WGMS in DC and WCLV in Cleveland.

[michael hagerty]

Much like KFRC, I think the great KMPC and KNX were crushing KHJ in the ratings.

Probably true, Llew. I can't find hard numbers to back it up (Billboard didn't start publishing full ratings data until the 70s...and Claude Hall didn't start excerpting them in comments in Vox Jox until the late 60s), but the Fall, 1966 Pulse ratings (the earliest I can find) give a clue:

1. KHJ (top 40) 9.0
1. KMPC (mor) 9.0
1. KLAC (talk) 9.0
4. KFI (mor) 7.0
4. KPOL (beautiful) 7.0
4. KRLA (top 40) 7.0
7. KABC (talk) 4.0
7. KFAC (classical) 4.0
7. KFWB (top 40) 4.0
7. KNX (mor) 4.0
7. XETRA (news) 4.0
12. KGFJ (r&b) 3.0
12. KWIZ (all request) 3.0
12. KWKW (Spanish) 3.0
15. KFOX (country) 2.0
15. KGBS (country) 2.0
15. KGIL (mor) 2.0
18. KALI (Spanish) 1.0
18. KBBI-FM (beautiful) 1.0
18. KBIG-AM (beautiful) 1.0
18. KBLA (top 40) 1.0
18. KBMS (beautiful) 1.0
18. KGER (religious) 1.0
18. KHJ-FM (top 40-simulcast) 1.0
18. KUTE-FM (beautiful) 1.0
18. KWIZ-FM (beautiful) 1.0
18. KWOW (country) 1.0

There are two things we know that happened here between early 1965 and this survey: The launch of Boss Radio and Bob Crane's departure from KNX. It's reasonable to assume that KMPC, KRLA and KNX were close to each other or tied at the top, with KFWB maybe a point or two back. Disaster in those days would be placing 10th or worse, since after that, it was pretty much lower-powered stations. That could mean as much as a five point difference in the ratings between KMPC and KHJ or KNX and KHJ.  KLAC and KABC probably picked up some numbers from the old KHJ, which was heavy on talk and information. Ballpark guess for fall '64:

1. KRLA
2. KMPC
3. KNX
4. KFI
5. KFWB
6. KPOL
7. KLAC
8. KFAC
9. KABC
10.KHJ
11.XETRA

And some of those might be tied with others. Back then, the numbers were whole numbers, no decimal points, so ties were common.

[DavidKaye]

Quite a few FMs were making good money by then, with KFOG and WJIB doing very well under Peter Taylor.

Yeah, I misspoke.  KJAZ, of course had to have been making money given that Pat Henry had built the place in the 1950s and wasn't loaded with money.  And there were indeed some FM stations shining. 

The report does say that over half the FMs in 1967 were losing money.  In those days some stations were selling single-channel FM radios and FM antennas in order to get people to listen to FM. 

The article is amazing in (1) its sexism, (2) its treatment of FM stations as also-rans while trying to tell people that FMs were not also-rans.  In 1967, Metromedia had just bought KSFR 94.9, prior to the callsign change to KSAN, and was promoting its classical format.  This, of course, is prior to Tom Donahue taking over.  And sister KMET was being promoted for its all-women DJs.  Even the stations that had established separate formats from the AMs were still carrying some of the AM's programming, usually daytime or morning drive, not confident enough to break away entirely. 

[DavidEduardo]

The report does say that over half the FMs in 1967 were losing money. 

But, if you look at the annual FCC financial reports for that same year, you find that half of all stations, AM or FM, were losing money... of course, that was the same in 1967 or 1977 or 1987 for that matter.

In those days some stations were selling single-channel FM radios and FM antennas in order to get people to listen to FM. 

And quite a few stations made money only due to SCA background music services.

The article is amazing in (1) its sexism,

If you look at the classifieds in the 50's and 60's, you saw lots of ads with "wanted: stable family man" and similar. Some even said "married preferred." Even worse, what were called "r&b stations" in the 70's was referred to as "race stations" in the 50's and "negro stations" in the 60's... even in their own advertising.

[DavidKaye]

And quite a few stations made money only due to SCA background music services.

When I worked at KSOL (now KSAN) 107.7, the station made more money on the background music service than on the main channel, which was remarkably devoid of advertisers.  In those days the station signed off at 2:00am, simply because bar closing time was at 2 and thus the background music had to run until 2. 

[JEREMIAH]

Lots of interesting stuff so far.

I've done just about every format there is bit the weirdest one was my  years at KSFO...1978-84 until Gene Autry sold to King Broadcasting.

7pm my AC music-personality hour
8 pm Old time radio(Lone Ranger and tons of others)
9 pm CBS mystery theatre.
10 pm The Comedy hour Live with me and local comics and recorded comedy.
11 pm Gordon's Graffiti (50's and 60's music and comment with era sound bites.

I don't know of any other station in the country with that kind  of format. It just evolved over the years.
We always were a strong third in the market with better numbers than the rest of KSFO. Wide demos for the format.
I even did dedications on friday night.

When station folded we had live TV coverage on channel 2
and  channel 7 my last night.

Lots of great memories.

Jerry Gordon Jack B. Show Salem Radio Network

[michael hagerty]

Lots of interesting stuff so far.

I've done just about every format there is bit the weirdest one was my  years at KSFO...1978-84 until Gene Autry sold to King Broadcasting.

7pm my AC music-personality hour
8 pm Old time radio(Lone Ranger and tons of others)
9 pm CBS mystery theatre.
10 pm The Comedy hour Live with me and local comics and recorded comedy.
11 pm Gordon's Graffiti (50's and 60's music and comment with era sound bites.

I don't know of any other station in the country with that kind  of format. It just evolved over the years.
We always were a strong third in the market with better numbers than the rest of KSFO. Wide demos for the format.
I even did dedications on friday night.

When station folded we had live TV coverage on channel 2
and  channel 7 my last night.

Lots of great memories.

Jerry Gordon Jack B. Show Salem Radio Network

KSFO was the true innovator in the GWB stable. KMPC got too wrapped up in trying to become a fully contemporary AC while still hanging on to the heavy personalities and spot load. In retrospect, they would have been better served heading in a nostalgia direction in the mid-late 70s...which is where they ended up in '82 (after a failed attempt at talk).  Instead, they went chasing an audience that was never going to be theirs. I made the same mistake in Reno from '77 to '81.

[Lkeller]

Lots of interesting stuff so far.

I've done just about every format there is bit the weirdest one was my  years at KSFO...1978-84 until Gene Autry sold to King Broadcasting.

7pm my AC music-personality hour
8 pm Old time radio(Lone Ranger and tons of others)
9 pm CBS mystery theatre.
10 pm The Comedy hour Live with me and local comics and recorded comedy.
11 pm Gordon's Graffiti (50's and 60's music and comment with era sound bites.

I don't know of any other station in the country with that kind  of format. It just evolved over the years.
We always were a strong third in the market with better numbers than the rest of KSFO. Wide demos for the format.
I even did dedications on friday night.

When station folded we had live TV coverage on channel 2
and  channel 7 my last night.

Lots of great memories.

Jerry Gordon Jack B. Show Salem Radio Network

Loved KSFO at nights during this period, Jerry! I listened from the time John Gilliland hosted.  Being in my 20s at the time, I imagine I was out of the KSFO demographic.