Freedom Tower

[WDAE-FM101]

If this is more appropriate for the engineering board, please move this post there:

When the Freedom Tower is completed (1,776') will that structure create any type of "null" to the Southwest for stations that continue to broadcast from the ESB? I know that mountains (e.g, West of Denver and East of Seattle) create a barrier for FM& TV signals, but wasn't sure about the impact that a building would have.  Thanks in advance.  Tom S

[XCountry285]

I wish they made a memorial park in someway for the victims families and Obama should sign a law stating that September 11th is a National Holiday where all banks, schools, everything is closed as well as December 7th.

[badjef]

If this is more appropriate for the engineering board, please move this post there:

When the Freedom Tower is completed (1,776') will that structure create any type of "null" to the Southwest for stations that continue to broadcast from the ESB? I know that mountains (e.g, West of Denver and East of Seattle) create a barrier for FM& TV signals, but wasn't sure about the impact that a building would have.  Thanks in advance.  Tom S

I can answer that.

Since there are a couple of miles separating ESB and WTC, the reflection is minimal and not worth the hassle of moving the antennas. Short-spacing will make that even harder.

The master antenna is about the 1,360 ft level. The overall height of WTC will be a "symbolic" 1,776 ft., but that is to the tip of the "antenna". If that is a permanent mast, then it will be included in the overall height, but the reflective material will end at a somewhat shorter height and therefore be invisible to multipath at the street level.

In the case of Empire, the official height is 1,250 to the base of the antenna. Even though it is permanent to us, because it can be removed, the antenna is not included in the overall height by the people who determine these things.

1WTC had a reflective problem and in fact, a radiation problem, with the UHFs radiating into the top floors of Tower 2. From what I was told, they corrected it with a film coating on the windows in the direction facing the antenna. There was an outdoor observation deck on the roof of Tower 2, just as they have on ESB. The difference is, the long term, constant, exposure for workers inside the building. Visitors would be exposed for only a short period of time.

For a period of time, the 102 inside observation deck was closed due to stricter radiation protocols. Empire is unique in sooo many ways. One of which is the only place I know where the average person can stand in the middle of a full power FM signal. The spikes you see around the top and bottom of the windows at "102" are the old Alford master antenna. They consider that a 2 bay antenna. I've always questioned if that might actually be higher ERP than was claimed. After a redesigned master and at a higher level, they don't use ol' Alford anymore, but because it's there, Empire people have to include it in their reports. The windows at 102 have that same film.

Pretty cool, eh?

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

[ai4i]

I understand that a small number of stations on ESB plus one non-com on 4TS are at reduced power due to milage spacing issues and those stations will likely migrate to 1WTC. Non-coms are based on signal overlaps, but what would the ERPs be for a class B and a class B1 at the new height, or do we not know how high the center of radiation will be?

[reelyreal]

If this is more appropriate for the engineering board, please move this post there:

When the Freedom Tower is completed (1,776') will that structure create any type of "null" to the Southwest for stations that continue to broadcast from the ESB? I know that mountains (e.g, West of Denver and East of Seattle) create a barrier for FM& TV signals, but wasn't sure about the impact that a building would have.  Thanks in advance.  Tom S

There shouldn't be any noticable coverage problems caused by the new 1WTC for a number of reasons.  Many FM broadcasters have awful memories of the problems 101.9 and 103.5 had transmitting from lower Manhattan.

The one exception is WPAT-FM which hasn't been able to find a suitable site to be licensed at since the destruction of WTC.  They'll be certain to build at 1WTC.  It's questionable whether TV would be willing to build another new site after investing so much at Empire, that's one of the big questions looming.

For a period of time, the 102 inside observation deck was closed due to stricter radiation protocols. Empire is unique in sooo many ways. One of which is the only place I know where the average person can stand in the middle of a full power FM signal. The spikes you see around the top and bottom of the windows at "102" are the old Alford master antenna. They consider that a 2 bay antenna. I've always questioned if that might actually be higher ERP than was claimed. After a redesigned master and at a higher level, they don't use ol' Alford anymore, but because it's there, Empire people have to include it in their reports. The windows at 102 have that same film.

Pretty cool, eh?

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

A few of the stations are actually still licensed to use the Alford... I know for sure WLTW, WSKQ, WXNY, WWFS, WRKS, WBAI, WBLS, and WEMP.  All of those aux licenses are still current and active.  WHTZ was formerly licensed to use it as an aux, but that license appears to be gone.  You're right that it's never used, but it could be.  It's still functional as far as I know.

The two separate rings of dipoles are each considered a bay.  There are 16 dipoles in each ring for a total of 32 elements.  It's a really interesting antenna.

[TimeIsTight]

When the Freedom Tower is completed (1,776') will that structure create any type of "null" to the Southwest for stations that continue to broadcast from the ESB?

Even if the new tower did create a null to the southwest for ESB signals, that null would be mostly over water in NY Bay where it wouldn't impact many listeners or viewers.

The old two-tower WTC, did block and reflect TV signals from the ESB mostly causing ghosting problems that went north up the Hudson River.

A much bigger threat to ESB signals is a planned new skyscraper, which is about as tall as the ESB, but wider, that will be constructed a short distance west of the ESB around Penn Station.  That will be one giant reflecting blocker.  Digital TV won't have ghost problems, but who knows what it will do?  And FM stations will likewise have multi-path problems impacting analog and digital channels in different ways.  Construction on the new building won't start until all the office space in it is leased, and with the slow economy that may take longer than originally hoped.  But, the builder has a track record, the plans are in place and it will probably happen. 

Check out the article linked to for details.......

 http://www.rwonline.com/article/%E2%80%9815-penn-plaza-skyscraper-could-affect-fm-signals/5243

[badjef]

When the Freedom Tower is completed (1,776') will that structure create any type of "null" to the Southwest for stations that continue to broadcast from the ESB?

Even if the new tower did create a null to the southwest for ESB signals, that null would be mostly over water in NY Bay where it wouldn't impact many listeners or viewers.

The old two-tower WTC, did block and reflect TV signals from the ESB mostly causing ghosting problems that went north up the Hudson River.

A much bigger threat to ESB signals is a planned new skyscraper, which is about as tall as the ESB, but wider, that will be constructed a short distance west of the ESB around Penn Station.  That will be one giant reflecting blocker.  Digital TV won't have ghost problems, but who knows what it will do?  And FM stations will likewise have multi-path problems impacting analog and digital channels in different ways.  Construction on the new building won't start until all the office space in it is leased, and with the slow economy that may take longer than originally hoped.  But, the builder has a track record, the plans are in place and it will probably happen. 

Check out the article linked to for details.......

 http://www.rwonline.com/article/%E2%80%9815-penn-plaza-skyscraper-could-affect-fm-signals/5243

I can see them breaking out the jib at Empire. A little bit of shuffling should take care of it.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

[Cosmopolite]

The proposed site of the office tower west of ESB is the Hotel Pennsylvania on Seventh Avenue between 32nd and 33rd Streets.

Plans for the new building may be off the table, in favor of renovating the hotel.

http://www.nypost.com/f/print/news/business/realestate/commercial/time_out_seen_in_skyline_war_Rg47P5grAVT5Ocs4QFn5I

[Justin Case]

Who still calls that Freedom Tower?   1WTC is all I ever hear!

The proposed site of the office tower west of ESB is the Hotel Pennsylvania on Seventh Avenue between 32nd and 33rd Streets.

Plans for the new building may be off the table, in favor of renovating the hotel.

http://www.nypost.com/f/print/news/business/realestate/commercial/time_out_seen_in_skyline_war_Rg47P5grAVT5Ocs4QFn5I

Your link says Page Not Found!

[reelyreal]

Who still calls that Freedom Tower?   1WTC is all I ever hear!

The proposed site of the office tower west of ESB is the Hotel Pennsylvania on Seventh Avenue between 32nd and 33rd Streets.

Plans for the new building may be off the table, in favor of renovating the hotel.

http://www.nypost.com/f/print/news/business/realestate/commercial/time_out_seen_in_skyline_war_Rg47P5grAVT5Ocs4QFn5I

Your link says Page Not Found!

It was missing one letter, try this!

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/realestate/commercial/time_out_seen_in_skyline_war_Rg47P5grAVT5Ocs4QFn5IJ