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Author Topic: SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS  (Read 2009 times)
OldChicago
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SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS
« on: June 20, 2012, 09:00:15 AM »

Perhaps this is not the perfect group to ask this in, but I know that there
are lost of frequency planning experts on ere.

I heard that in Mexico, they were talking about having just 400-kh'z spacing between stations in the same area.  Did this ever happen?  Could they try this here in the USA.

Old Chicago
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rbrucecarter5
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Re: SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 11:47:54 AM »

From a practical standpoint, with today's FM radio designs - even the ones with a single IF filter - 400k spacing would be fine.  I've used such a radio on first adjacents about the same strength and you can still separate the stations with virtually no problem, even on a small analog tuned radio.  You would get howls of complaints from station owners, though, concerned about new stations competing with them if the FCC proposed 400 k spacing in the US.  So it probably won't happen.  The FCC is much too busy with more important matters - taking kickbacks from iBiquity.  Making sure minorities control the airwaves.  Seeing to it that interference is maximized on FM as well as AM by allowing interference producing devices to proliferate freely.
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radiogooroo
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Re: SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2012, 11:57:00 AM »

The FCC is much too busy with more important matters - taking kickbacks from iBiquity.  Making sure minorities control the airwaves.  Seeing to it that interference is maximized on FM as well as AM by allowing interference producing devices to proliferate freely.

You anti-IBOC guys are aware that you look absolutely nuts when you write stuff like this, aren't you?
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stan
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Re: SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2012, 01:42:29 PM »

400 kHz spacing should be the standard. Just think of how many more broadcast choices we could have!
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Get an iPhone and load it with the music you like.  You'll be a lot happier.
rbrucecarter5
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Re: SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2012, 02:24:46 PM »

The FCC is much too busy with more important matters - taking kickbacks from iBiquity.  Making sure minorities control the airwaves.  Seeing to it that interference is maximized on FM as well as AM by allowing interference producing devices to proliferate freely.

You anti-IBOC guys are aware that you look absolutely nuts when you write stuff like this, aren't you?

You have to admit it looks really bad.  One company's system adopted with inadequate testing, a whole lot of technical problems, adds interference to the dial, has severe coverage issues.  No engineer in their right mind would have adopted it as a standard.  So either the FCC is totally incompetent, or taking kickbacks from iBiquity.  Whatever it is - its technical problems doomed it with consumers from day one.  Nobody is willing to pay a dime extra to get it in a radio, unless they are fanatical about a niche format on HD-2.  And there aren't enough of those to make the product successful.  This is the biggest flop since AM stereo, new coke, the PC Junior, Microsoft Bob, the Que Cat, etc.  Besides iBiquity, the only ones gung-ho about it are station owners wanting to make a dime off of HD-2 ads, unload an uncomfortable format on HD-2, or they are so heavily invested in it they have too much pride to admit that the system has flopped.

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radiogooroo
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Re: SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 02:44:08 PM »

HD will be in 140+ models of new cars by the end of 2013.

It's not "flopped."  It's just beginning.

Suggesting the Commission is taking bribes is ridiculous.
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landtuna
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Re: SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 03:06:11 PM »

HD will be in 140+ models of new cars by the end of 2013.

Perhaps, but as in my 2011 vehicle which came with a non-optional XM/Sirius radio, not used because of the technical problems and/or sound quality.  Didn't BMW learn a costly lesson about HD radio a few years ago?
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rbrucecarter5
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Re: SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 03:36:20 PM »

HD will be in 140+ models of new cars by the end of 2013.

It's not "flopped."  It's just beginning.

Suggesting the Commission is taking bribes is ridiculous.

Do consumers even know it is there?  Do auto dealers?  Last time I checked, they did not.  They either think it is satellite radio or give you a blank stare.  Same thing as AM stereo.  Most people didn't even know it was in the car.  Given a choice, they will select satellite, pandora, bluetooth, auxilary, DVD, MP3, USB, iPod interfaces over HD.  It may be in 140 models of car as a option - that doesn't mean its actually available in dealerships, nor does it mean the dealer has ordered vehicles with it installed for their inventory.  They go with more popular options.
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rbrucecarter5
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Re: SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2012, 03:53:59 PM »

HD will be in 140+ models of new cars by the end of 2013.

It's not "flopped."  It's just beginning.

Suggesting the Commission is taking bribes is ridiculous.

And YES, I'll accuse the FCC of taking bribes.  Any time - to their face.  Bribes don't have to be money, they can be suggestions of political favor if you support one digital system over another.  There were competing systems, that were technically much better.  Why did we end up with iBiquity?  Because Clear Channel is big and powerful.  If they didn't bribe their defective system into law, they sure applied high pressure to the right people in high places to get it enacted.  Something is really wrong when a critically flawed system like iBiquity ends up being adopted.  I'd love to find out exactly how it happened, and blow the whistle on it - because it is the American public who is now stuck with a defective system that has poor robustness, and splatters all over adjacent frequencies.  On the AM side, it doesn't work at night unless you are on top of the tower.  And it splatters on not just first adjacents, but second adjacents as well.  There were some real programming options on some of those second adjacents - so I even suspect some broadcasters are intentionally jamming competitors with HD.  There have been some complaints by broadcasters to that effect.  Corruption, incompetence, and money often go together.  I wish I had proof, but I don't.

We needed a robust, low cost, low power system that had the potential to really revolutionize the dial.  It should have been enacted on a new band, with existing broadcasters given spectrum there.  With careful selection of the system and the new frequency band, we could right now have fully digital three band receivers in cars, with extremely good coverage, interfering with nobody, allocations done intelligently instead of the current state of both AM and FM bands.  Consumers would more readily adopt it because it would actually WORK when they tried it out intead of drop out and not lock like iBiquity.  The best case scenario - the FCC didn't know what the heck they were signing off on - they trusted iBiquity, who did bad engineering and inadequate testing on the system.  When and if they discovered problems - instead of going back to the lab and re-designing until the problems were solved, they covered them up, glossed them over, misrepresented facts to fit their cherished assumptions - the essence of bad science and bad engineering.  A little example is when they said the GE Superadio 3 is not a broadband receiver, then published an IF bandwidth spec for wideband that clearly matched the narrow setting of the bandwidth switch.  They further said that all radios are narrowband, when the old tired "3 IF can" reference design had not been manufactured in 20 years.  All new AM sections now consist of an IC and one really sloppy wideband ceramic filter.  Little misrepresentation of facts like that all through their published material completely erases their credibility with serious engineers such as myself.  And cries out of cover up after cover up of engineering blunders and deficiencies, sloppy test techniques, tests designed specifically to make their system look good.  Take your choice: bad engineering, cover ups, money, influence peddling.  The big losers - the American public, iBiquity's investors who are going to take a financial hit, and ultimately broadcasters who did not get the digital upgrade they deserved.
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radiogooroo
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Re: SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2012, 04:33:23 PM »

Perhaps, but as in my 2011 vehicle which came with a non-optional XM/Sirius radio, not used because of the technical problems and/or sound quality.  Didn't BMW learn a costly lesson about HD radio a few years ago?

I have no idea what BMW learned or didn't learn about HD radio.  I don't obsess over this stuff.

When people come totally unhinged like rbrucecarter is right now, accusing the FCC of taking bribes, etc. it just makes the anti-IBOC guys look nuts.  If any of you had any valid points, they're totally lost in the insanity.

It doesn't matter anyway.  Good, bad or indifferent, the system is in place.  It's not going away.  According to the little update I got in my email inbox a few days ago, it's going to be in 140+ models of new cars by the end of 2013.  It's in place on virtually every FM in every major market.  The capital expenditure has been made, and it's here to stay whether anyone likes it or not.

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