SPACING BETWEEN FM STATIONS

[Kent]

Do consumers even know it is there?  Do auto dealers?  Last time I checked, they did not.  They either think it is satellite radio or give you a blank stare.  Same thing as AM stereo.  Most people didn't even know it was in the car.  Given a choice, they will select satellite, pandora, bluetooth, auxilary, DVD, MP3, USB, iPod interfaces over HD.  It may be in 140 models of car as a option - that doesn't mean its actually available in dealerships, nor does it mean the dealer has ordered vehicles with it installed for their inventory.  They go with more popular options.

The press release clearly states these will be OEM radios.  That implies, to me anyway, that you get HD Radio if you buy one of those cars.  It also clearly states HD Radio is "standard equipment."

Assuming it really is standard equipment, you don't have to know if HD Radio is in your car.  I can't imagine there will be any choosing HD.  They'll simply choose AM or FM, and they'll get HD if they can receive it on the station they want to hear.  So, it won't likely be a matter of selecting these other forms of entertainment over HD.  It will be whether they want radio or something else.

[landtuna]

I have no idea what BMW learned or didn't learn about HD radio.  I don't obsess over this stuff.

To quote a popular expression "it wasn't ready for prime time".  BMW offered HD in their cars but suffered major warranty losses when buyers kept bringing their cars back because "the radio doesn't work".  Intrinsic technical failures (insufficient range and loss of lock primarily) meant that, while the HD sound quality was good the signal wasn't reliable and unfortunately the problem is in the technology and not the individual radio units.

All this has been covered in great detail in earlier posts in this forum.

When people come totally unhinged like rbrucecarter is right now, accusing the FCC of taking bribes, etc. it just makes the anti-IBOC guys look nuts.  If any of you had any valid points, they're totally lost in the insanity.

I can't defend 'rbrucecarter' but I can suggest you read historical posts if you need oodles of issues regarding HD radio. 

It doesn't matter anyway.  Good, bad or indifferent, the system is in place.  It's not going away.  According to the little update I got in my email inbox a few days ago, it's going to be in 140+ models of new cars by the end of 2013.  It's in place on virtually every FM in every major market.  The capital expenditure has been made, and it's here to stay whether anyone likes it or not.

The main issues with HD obviously concern the broadcast industry itself because, quite frankly, the man on the street doesn't give it a second thought and that is assuming he knows what it is in the first place.  Sooner or later those capital expenditures are going to need upgrading, licensing or replacement and then we'll see just how popular HD radio is.

And one last problem area for HD radio that has nothing to do with the technology itself.  You have almost two generations of listeners who have become accustomed to compressed audio through tinny earbuds.  The very slight audio quality advantage of HD is going to be indecipherable to them and they will care even less than the very small number of listeners do today.  And that is assuming there is HD content that attracts them in the first place.  I doubt rap sounds any better on HD.

[radiogooroo]

I have no idea what BMW learned or didn't learn about HD radio.  I don't obsess over this stuff.

To quote a popular expression "it wasn't ready for prime time".  BMW offered HD in their cars but suffered major warranty losses when buyers kept bringing their cars back because "the radio doesn't work".  Intrinsic technical failures (insufficient range and loss of lock primarily) meant that, while the HD sound quality was good the signal wasn't reliable and unfortunately the problem is in the technology and not the individual radio units.

All this has been covered in great detail in earlier posts in this forum.

When people come totally unhinged like rbrucecarter is right now, accusing the FCC of taking bribes, etc. it just makes the anti-IBOC guys look nuts.  If any of you had any valid points, they're totally lost in the insanity.

I can't defend 'rbrucecarter' but I can suggest you read historical posts if you need oodles of issues regarding HD radio. 

It doesn't matter anyway.  Good, bad or indifferent, the system is in place.  It's not going away.  According to the little update I got in my email inbox a few days ago, it's going to be in 140+ models of new cars by the end of 2013.  It's in place on virtually every FM in every major market.  The capital expenditure has been made, and it's here to stay whether anyone likes it or not.

The main issues with HD obviously concern the broadcast industry itself because, quite frankly, the man on the street doesn't give it a second thought and that is assuming he knows what it is in the first place.  Sooner or later those capital expenditures are going to need upgrading, licensing or replacement and then we'll see just how popular HD radio is.

And one last problem area for HD radio that has nothing to do with the technology itself.  You have almost two generations of listeners who have become accustomed to compressed audio through tinny earbuds.  The very slight audio quality advantage of HD is going to be indecipherable to them and they will care even less than the very small number of listeners do today.  And that is assuming there is HD content that attracts them in the first place.  I doubt rap sounds any better on HD.

Yeah, you guys have been preaching this stuff for years, but it's still here.

Given the fact that HD is now being monetized in big ways through translators, and in lesser ways through various data feeds like traffic info to HD enabled GPS devices by every one of the major broadcast companies, I suspect they'll pony up for repairs, etc.  I don't see any of them doing anything to undermine these new revenue streams.

But preach on brother, preach on.  Don't forget to complete the look with a tin foil hat.  Lol...

[DavidEduardo]

To quote a popular expression "it wasn't ready for prime time".  BMW offered HD in their cars but suffered major warranty losses when buyers kept bringing their cars back because "the radio doesn't work".

No, that is not true. An ambulance-chasing law firm either looked into or actually sued BMW in a class action. This action was based on a couple of reports and a lot of garbage from some HD-hating folks.

I asked the service managers at the two BMW dealers I go to, one of them a top-10 dealer nationally. Both said that they had never had such complaints.

I have or have had 4 BMWs with HD in them, and the radios work fine, and the HD works very well, particularly on AM in noisy metro areas.

Intrinsic technical failures (insufficient range and loss of lock primarily) meant that, while the HD sound quality was good the signal wasn't reliable and unfortunately the problem is in the technology and not the individual radio units.

Again, using my car HD radios as examples, in areas outside metro LA, such as Redlands, San Bernardino or Oceanside, where the KFI and KNX analog signals are beginning to be noisy, the HD signal is fully locked and clear and interference free. On FM, I've carried Phoenix FMs like KNIX and KMLE almost to Quartsite on HD.

Whether there is an economic reason to have HD is different... and I believe that for AM it's a non-productive effort.

AM is fading, and irrelevant to most Americans. And in the top 100 metro areas, the average is less than 2 viable AM facilities per market, so most stations can't benefit from HD because they are horrible facilities anyway.

On FM, the real benefit other than FM translators is in the HD2 and HD3 channels. While commercial FMs have been stopped from making any significant contribution on Hd due to the recession, the NPR stations are examples of providing valuable new services on HD channels.

[DavidEduardo]

Making sure minorities control the airwaves. 

Wow. Please elaborate.

[stan]

I'm curious about HD, and it's robustness. Would it work with 400 khz spacing? 200 KHz spacing?

[landtuna]

To quote a popular expression "it wasn't ready for prime time".  BMW offered HD in their cars but suffered major warranty losses when buyers kept bringing their cars back because "the radio doesn't work".

No, that is not true.

It was a serious enough problem that required BMW to issue several service bulletins - the first in March of 2007 with a follow-up in August.

[DavidEduardo]

It was a serious enough problem that required BMW to issue several service bulletins - the first in March of 2007 with a follow-up in August.

BMW can issue several service bulletins a day. Everything that might help another dealer reduce warranty repair cost, which BMW pays, is documented for reference.

The fact that a couple of morons could not tune their radio does not indicate a real problem.

There are literally thousands of bulletins about the iDrive, but BMW's still have iDrives.

[rbrucecarter5]

I'm curious about HD, and it's robustness. Would it work with 400 khz spacing? 200 KHz spacing?

Robustness on HD FM - I have done a careful survey 70 miles from the Dallas towers with a dipole held at one meter off of the ground.  All Dallas HD FMs locked.  I'd call that robust enough for just about any purpose, especially since my listening site was a rural area surrounded by ranches and livestock.  Not much audience potential when houses are spaced a mile or more apart.  Another observer has done tests 84 miles from the Houston towers and reported reliable HD lock with a dipole at ceiling level.

HD would work with 400 kHz spacing, but barely.  If both stations were running HD, theoretically the sidebands would clear each other.  In reality, though, you would need close to a brick wall IF filter.  The only FM tuner ever manufactured with an IF sharp enough is the Marantz 10-B, but I don't know if it could be retrofitted with an HD decoder. 

HD would not work with 200 kHz spacing.  Before HD, the deviation from carrier was +/- 75 kHz, meaning FM stations fit neatly within the 200 kHz channels.  Because most of the deviation was considerably less than +/-75 kHz, first adjacent reception on equal powered stations was relatively easy, even on inexpensive receivers.  HD, however, increases the deviation to the point that it overlays first adjacent channels.  Two HD stations, spaced at 200 kHz, with equal signal strength would interfere destructively with each other.  HD is especially sensitive to interference, so neither station could be received in HD.  There have been tests with asymmetrical sidebands that might give the scenario a chance if both stations used the sideband away from the other, but I doubt such a test has been run.  iBiquity obviously did not test their system adequately prior to its introduction.

Going back to the Dallas scenario, there is one important exception to the HD robustness scenario.  Listeners in the DFW area who are less than ten miles from the towers, but on the approach path to DFW airport, report that HD lock is unreliable.  The planes cause fades in the 60 dB range, causing HD to drop out of lock.  Given that the airplane flutter is fractions of a second and the lock time is several seconds, HD reception near airports or along approach paths is not practical.  Proposals to increase sideband power by a paltry 6 to 10 dB will do nothing to combat 60 dB signal fluctuations. 

[rbrucecarter5]

When people come totally unhinged like rbrucecarter is right now, accusing the FCC of taking bribes, etc. it just makes the anti-IBOC guys look nuts.  If any of you had any valid points, they're totally lost in the insanity.

Thank you for allowing me to win the debate.  How you ask?  Debate 101 - if you attack or insult your opponent, they win by default.  So - I win!  You lose.  I guess HD radio is indefensible for you to resort to such desperate tactics.

By the way, because I am a Christian believer, any insult or curse you hurl my way automatically returns on you.  I am protected by the blood of Christ from such things.  So think twice before you mess with one of Christ's followers.  You cannot win.