Making the change???

[harrisMW5]

What would you say to a programming person thinking of venturing into sales? Good? Bad? Any success/failure stories you'd like to share? Tips? I'd be interested in your feedback. Thanks!

--Harris

[radiofool]

> What would you say to a programming person thinking of
> venturing into sales? Good? Bad? Any success/failure stories
> you'd like to share? Tips? I'd be interested in your
> feedback. Thanks!
>
> --Harris
>
It's a hard transition...everyone I know how tried has failed.  The itch to be on the air is almost like a disability to us. The dreams of big commissions is always tempting but you'd most likely be miserable. Plus don't you remember how much you've hated sales people over the years...or is that just me?

[Bangorfan]

> > What would you say to a programming person thinking of
> > venturing into sales? Good? Bad? Any success/failure
> stories
> > you'd like to share? Tips? I'd be interested in your
> > feedback. Thanks!
> >
> > --Harris
> >
> It's a hard transition...everyone I know how tried has
> failed.  The itch to be on the air is almost like a
> disability to us. The dreams of big commissions is always
> tempting but you'd most likely be miserable. Plus don't you
> remember how much you've hated sales people over the
> years...or is that just me?
>
More money, less fun.

[ErieLackawanna]

> > What would you say to a programming person thinking of
> > venturing into sales? Good? Bad? Any success/failure
> stories
> > you'd like to share? Tips? I'd be interested in your
> > feedback. Thanks!
> >
> > --Harris
> >
> It's a hard transition...everyone I know how tried has
> failed.  The itch to be on the air is almost like a
> disability to us. The dreams of big commissions is always
> tempting but you'd most likely be miserable. Plus don't you
> remember how much you've hated sales people over the
> years...or is that just me?
>

not ALL sales weasels are evil or worthy of hate.  some actually "get it" when it comes to the on-air/production side of things.

but no, it's not just you. ;-)

i know a few who've made the transition and done very well for themselves, but yet they'll keep their fingers in the pie by doing voice-work, at first for their own clients, then as free-lancers.

Nick Seneca, who spent a lot of time in Maine (WGAN, WCLZ) and in Boston (WHDH) in the 80's & 90's is now a west coast voice talent who's been to more auditions than sessions but is loving it.  he did the sales thing for a time, did all right, so he said, but wound up back in the studio.

Bob Benson, who rocked out DC back "in the day" at WWDC and others is now retired from "sales," yet is once again active in the biz with the Saga in-house production company, Blue Wave Creative.  (great pipes, nice guy and not worthy of the "hate" thing)

others who've made the switch to THE DARK SIDE from programming wound up as GM's, and we all know how wicked swell THEY are to deal with. ;-)  fortunately, the business has a way of culling them out.

(excuse me: must go wash my brain after just thinking about some of those no-longer-in-the-biz GM's)

[argytunes]

>> others who've made the switch to THE DARK SIDE from
> programming wound up as GM's, and we all know how wicked
> swell THEY are to deal with. ;-)  fortunately, the business
> has a way of culling them out.
>
> (excuse me: must go wash my brain after just thinking about
> some of those no-longer-in-the-biz GM's)

The same can be said for "Talent" (which is too broad a term, since not every radio "on-air personality" has it)!  

But like one of the previous posters, the transition from jock to sales IS possible depending upon the radio group you work for, your commission, and whether you understand the difference between "playing nice with the voiceover talent" or acting like an out-of control moron?  

How many of us (in or out of the business) have been hit with the famous panic speech: "I NEED THAT SPOT ON THE AIR IN LESS THAN AN HOUR!!"  

You'd think the "fate of an entire radio group" was built around one lousy thirty second commercial!!!!

argytunes

[kritic]

If you like being behind the microphone, you will always have the itch to be there.  It might suffice to do the occasional voiceover.  Sales is a real challenge and you never stop working.  Once you get into the advertising game, you are always looking at the paper and thinking you should be able to get that advertiser, listening to the competition and trying to get their advertisers.  You have to listen to stations that you don't like and really listen to the ads.

I know people in small markets that do sales and announcing.  It's possible, but it is hard work.  I've done both and burned out on ad sales about five years ago and chose a new profession.  I make a lot less, but I am healthier and happy.

[NickGerard]

Selling radio is an excellent profession.  Be sure, however, that it's an affirmative move for you.  In other words, move to sales because you're excited by the work, not because you want to get away from something else.

After many years on the air and in programming, I was drawn to sales because of a woman I was close with at the time.  She was passionate about selling radio.  I saw, through her, that it really was about taking care of the advertisers.  I saw the excellent business relationships she had with her clients and how the clients appreciated and respected her because she was sincere, worked hard, and did a good job for them.  All of this really appealed to me.

When I was in selling, I developed a much more "real world" perspective on radio stations.  I came to sense that "getting the business on the air" is where the action and energy is at a radio station.  It's where the power is. It's the centrifuge affecting everythg else that happens in the station.

In sales, I felt far more plugged in to the business life of the community (Portland, Maine).  I met far more people in the first 5 months of selling than I did in 5 years in the on-air studio.  You learn where the money is, who the decision-makers are.

Selling radio is a skill that can be learned.  Like any trade, there are specific techniques to learn, internalize, and sharpen.  If you choose to go into sales, it's ESSENTIAL that the station you choose offers access to excellent radio sales training.  Chris Lytle and Jason Jennings are two trainers who were really useful to me.  If the station you're considering doesn't offer FORMAL training up front, FIND A STATION THAT DOES.  I can't emphasize enough the importance of that!

You also acquire skills useful in life.  For example, I'm far better at negotiating a car purchase now.  I understand negotiation, and I understand the techniques being used by the seller.

When you do well, being a radio account executive is great. I sold in Portland for 5 years, a relatively short career.  When it was at its peak, I was making a better-than-average living and had great relationships with most of my customers.  I enjoyed that fact that I could be out shopping or in a restaurant on a Saturday night and would run into business acquaintences.  I felt very connected to life in Portland and part of the texture of the community.

Understand, though, that radio sales is excruciatingly difficult at the beginning.  Cold call after cold call.  Days with absolutely no appointments and no idea who you should call next.  It takes a while, but if you do the job correctly, things to start to come together.  Suddenly you've made a sale.  Then another.  And it builds from there.

My old friend Rick Snyder once made an observation about starting in radio sales which my own experience has borne out:

Year One:  Difficult and painful. lots of work, few results.  Self-doubt.

Year Two:  Things begin to come together.  You're selling regularly, if not a    whole lot.  You're paying your bills, but not really getting ahead.

Year Three: This is when it starts to happen for you.  Regular advertisers, some big accounts, meaningful paychecks.  Job offers from competing stations.  Your energy and focus on radio sales is finally paying off!

If you stay with it beyond year three, work hard and make good career decisions, you will see that selling radio is a great career choice.

I've never really understood the venom and sarcasm directed at radio sales people by many posters on these boards.  Yes, there are poor radio sales people.    The great ones, however, are skilled, sought-after professionals getting the kind of respect most jocks would envy!  

Many jocks haven't a clue how hard that job is.  When a jock hears a new advertiser on his station, say a car dealer, he never realizes that the sales person probably had to make 20 phone calls or drop-ins to that dealer just to get an apppointement for a first meeting!  Then the at the meeting, the dealer didn't show up.  Then you work to get the next appointment.  Then the presentation, and another and another.  Then the negotiation and trying to close the sale.  It's very, very, tough and you're usually negotiating with people tougher than you are!  You try sitting across a desk from Jolly John getting him to take your radio proposal seriously.  I'll tell ya, he ain't jolly.

When your station gets that new advertiser on the air, jocks should shake that radio salesman's hand and hi-5 him, instead of pissin' and moanin' that they don't like the copy!

Ultimately, after 5 years, I did really miss being on the air and left sales. I'd come to realize that my life's passion (from childhood, really) was being on the air and in the production studio. But that's just me. It may not be the case with you.  Once a jock, always a jock doesn't apply to everyone.  You may catch the wave and make a great career of radio sales.  And that's a career you can be proud of.

Nick Seneca

[ErieLackawanna]

> Ultimately, after 5 years, I did really miss being on the
> air and left sales. I'd come to realize that my life's
> passion (from childhood, really) was being on the air and in
> the production studio. But that's just me. It may not be the
> case with you.  Once a jock, always a jock doesn't apply to
> everyone.  You may catch the wave and make a great career of
> radio sales.  And that's a career you can be proud of.
>
> Nick Seneca
>

as smoothly writ were it spoken on the air, sir nicholas!  

and what you brings round "these parts?"  ;-)  how be life in sunny CA?

[argytunes]

> I've never really understood the venom and sarcasm directed
> at radio sales people by many posters on these boards.  Yes,
> there are poor radio sales people.    The great ones,
> however, are skilled, sought-after professionals getting the
> kind of respect most jocks would envy!  

I THINK THE VENOM ONLY ARRIVES WHEN A HARD-WORKING ACCOUNT EXECUTIVE VIEWS AN AIR TALENT, COPYWRITER OR PRODUCTION PERSON AS "JUST ANOTHER EMPLOYEE OF THE RADIO STATION!" AND NICK....YOU KNOW BETTER THAN ANYBODY...THAT A LOT OF AE'S PULL THIS NONSENSE.  IT'S NOT JUST THE PERSON WHO "LANDS THE ACCOUNT AND WRITES UP THE ORDER!"  SUCCESS FOR ANY CLIENT IS OFTEN CORRELATED TO THE WAY "THE CREATIVE PEOPLE" ARE TREATED! WE'RE TALKING A REALISTIC TIME-FRAME AS OPPOSED TO "BANGING OUT THE COMMERCIAL" AND GETTING IT ON THE AIR!  I'D HATE TO SPEND A LARGE CHUNK OF MY ADVERTISING DOLLARS ON A STATION THAT JUST WANTS TO MAKE MY BUSINESS SOUND EXACTLY LIKE 6 OF MY COMPETITORS!  
>
> Many jocks haven't a clue how hard that job is.  When a jock
> hears a new advertiser on his station, say a car dealer, he
> never realizes that the sales person probably had to make 20
> phone calls or drop-ins to that dealer just to get an
> apppointement for a first meeting!  Then the at the meeting,
> the dealer didn't show up.  Then you work to get the next
> appointment.  Then the presentation, and another and
> another.  Then the negotiation and trying to close the sale.
>  It's very, very, tough and you're usually negotiating with
> people tougher than you are!  You try sitting across a desk
> from Jolly John getting him to take your radio proposal
> seriously.  I'll tell ya, he ain't jolly.
>
> When your station gets that new advertiser on the air, jocks
> should shake that radio salesman's hand and hi-5 him,
> instead of pissin' and moanin' that they don't like the
> copy!

I AGREE WITH YOU 100%....BUT MANY OF THE PROMISES THAT AN A.E. MAKES TO A CLIENT (JUST TO GET HIS BUSINESS) AREN'T ALWAYS REALISTIC WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO PRODUCING THE ACTUAL SPOT!  YOU PROBABLY KNOW THIS BETTER THAN ANYBODY, NICK, SINCE YOU HAVE "PRODUCED AND VOICED" THOUSANDS OF COMMERCIALS AND PROMOTIONAL ADS OVER THE YEARS. YOU ALSO KNOW THAT MOST SALES PEOPLE WRITE HORRIBLE COPY! AND IT OFTEN TAKES A LITTLE TIME FOR CREATIVE PEOPLE TO "CLEAN IT UP FOR BROADCAST!  MANY NEW CLIENTS WANTS EVERY PIECE OF INFORMATION CRAMMED INTO 30 SECONDS...AND OFTEN USE THE ARGUMENT...."THIS IS WHAT WE'RE RUNNING ON RADIO STATION X, Y, OR Z!  THEN THEY OFTEN WILL ADD THE CLASSIC COMMENT: "BE SURE THE SPOT YOU PRODUCE FOR US DOESN'T SOUND ANYTHING LIKE THOSE OF OUR COMPETITORS!"

THIS IS WHERE THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN THE SALES AND CREATIVE DEPARTMENTS.  BUT WHAT BOTH SIDES STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND (AFTER CLOSE TO 8 DECADES)IS THAT LISTENERS WHO REALLY HATE A COMMERCIAL (NO MATTER HOW WELL IT'S WRITTEN, PRODUCED OR VOICED) WILL AUTOMATICALLY "TUNE IT OUT!"  UNLESS A CAR DEALER IS OFFERING A FREE VEHICLE TO THE FIRST 50 PEOPLE WHO WALK INTO HIS SHOWROOM....OR A SUPERMARKET HAS 6 BAGS OF FREE GROCERIES READY FOR THE FIRST 100 CUSTOMERS WHO WALK THROUGH THE DOOR ON TUESDAY MORNING...YOU CAN'T "CON A LISTENER!"  
>
> Ultimately, after 5 years, I did really miss being on the
> air and left sales. I'd come to realize that my life's
> passion (from childhood, really) was being on the air and in
> the production studio. But that's just me. It may not be the
> case with you.  Once a jock, always a jock doesn't apply to
> everyone.  You may catch the wave and make a great career of
> radio sales.  And that's a career you can be proud of.

I THINK THERE'S AN ART TO SALES...JUST AS THERE IS TO ON-AIR WORK!  BUT THE POINT IS THAT BOTH HALVES NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE OTHER---AND WORK IN TANDEM!  ASSUMING THAT ONE HALF CAN SURVIVE WITHOUT THE OTHER IS NOT ONLY DUMB..BUT ULTIMATELY..A COMMERCIAL/FINANCIAL LOSS TO THE RADIO STATION OR GROUP!

MAYBE THIS "ATTITUDE OF UNDERSTANDING" IS WHAT SEPARATES THE FEW REALLY TERRIFIC RADIO STATIONS....FROM JUST...A RADIO STATION?
>
> Nick Seneca/ARGYTUNES
>

[Mouth1390]

> Selling radio is an excellent profession.  Be sure, however,
> that it's an affirmative move for you.  In other words, move
> to sales because you're excited by the work, not because you
> want to get away from something else.
>
> After many years on the air and in programming, I was drawn
> to sales because of a woman I was close with at the time.
> She was passionate about selling radio.  I saw, through her,
> that it really was about taking care of the advertisers.  I
> saw the excellent business relationships she had with her
> clients and how the clients appreciated and respected her
> because she was sincere, worked hard, and did a good job for
> them.  All of this really appealed to me.
>
> When I was in selling, I developed a much more "real world"
> perspective on radio stations.  I came to sense that
> "getting the business on the air" is where the action and
> energy is at a radio station.  It's where the power is. It's
> the centrifuge affecting everythg else that happens in the
> station.
>
> In sales, I felt far more plugged in to the business life of
> the community (Portland, Maine).  I met far more people in
> the first 5 months of selling than I did in 5 years in the
> on-air studio.  You learn where the money is, who the
> decision-makers are.
>
> Selling radio is a skill that can be learned.  Like any
> trade, there are specific techniques to learn, internalize,
> and sharpen.  If you choose to go into sales, it's ESSENTIAL
> that the station you choose offers access to excellent radio
> sales training.  Chris Lytle and Jason Jennings are two
> trainers who were really useful to me.  If the station
> you're considering doesn't offer FORMAL training up front,
> FIND A STATION THAT DOES.  I can't emphasize enough the
> importance of that!
>
> You also acquire skills useful in life.  For example, I'm
> far better at negotiating a car purchase now.  I understand
> negotiation, and I understand the techniques being used by
> the seller.
>
> When you do well, being a radio account executive is great.
> I sold in Portland for 5 years, a relatively short career.
> When it was at its peak, I was making a better-than-average
> living and had great relationships with most of my
> customers.  I enjoyed that fact that I could be out shopping
> or in a restaurant on a Saturday night and would run into
> business acquaintences.  I felt very connected to life in
> Portland and part of the texture of the community.
>
> Understand, though, that radio sales is excruciatingly
> difficult at the beginning.  Cold call after cold call.
> Days with absolutely no appointments and no idea who you
> should call next.  It takes a while, but if you do the job
> correctly, things to start to come together.  Suddenly
> you've made a sale.  Then another.  And it builds from
> there.
>
> My old friend Rick Snyder once made an observation about
> starting in radio sales which my own experience has borne
> out:
>
> Year One:  Difficult and painful. lots of work, few results.
>  Self-doubt.
>
> Year Two:  Things begin to come together.  You're selling
> regularly, if not a    whole lot.  You're paying your bills,
> but not really getting ahead.
>
> Year Three: This is when it starts to happen for you.
> Regular advertisers, some big accounts, meaningful
> paychecks.  Job offers from competing stations.  Your energy
> and focus on radio sales is finally paying off!
>
> If you stay with it beyond year three, work hard and make
> good career decisions, you will see that selling radio is a
> great career choice.
>
> I've never really understood the venom and sarcasm directed
> at radio sales people by many posters on these boards.  Yes,
> there are poor radio sales people.    The great ones,
> however, are skilled, sought-after professionals getting the
> kind of respect most jocks would envy!  
>
> Many jocks haven't a clue how hard that job is.  When a jock
> hears a new advertiser on his station, say a car dealer, he
> never realizes that the sales person probably had to make 20
> phone calls or drop-ins to that dealer just to get an
> apppointement for a first meeting!  Then the at the meeting,
> the dealer didn't show up.  Then you work to get the next
> appointment.  Then the presentation, and another and
> another.  Then the negotiation and trying to close the sale.
>  It's very, very, tough and you're usually negotiating with
> people tougher than you are!  You try sitting across a desk
> from Jolly John getting him to take your radio proposal
> seriously.  I'll tell ya, he ain't jolly.
>
> When your station gets that new advertiser on the air, jocks
> should shake that radio salesman's hand and hi-5 him,
> instead of pissin' and moanin' that they don't like the
> copy!
>
> Ultimately, after 5 years, I did really miss being on the
> air and left sales. I'd come to realize that my life's
> passion (from childhood, really) was being on the air and in
> the production studio. But that's just me. It may not be the
> case with you.  Once a jock, always a jock doesn't apply to
> everyone.  You may catch the wave and make a great career of
> radio sales.  And that's a career you can be proud of.
>
> Nick Seneca
>
What an insightful and excellent post ! Like you, I've done on air and sales for years and they do compliment each other. In fact, the smart announcer will inquire about doing both: being on the air and in sales. That individual has the advantage of understanding who is listening and can better target prospects. More importantly, they can demonstrate to the prospect how their station can reach the prospect's potential customers.

I always get a charge out of announcers who complain about the copy. . .or that they have too many spots. That's what makes it all possible. Down here on Long Island, political advertising is very strong in October. A lot of local candidates for county and town offices use local radio. And we sell 'em. It is a great revenue stream and helps the announcer/sales person make contacts in government which can never hurt.