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Author Topic: "HD AM in NJ/NY ?"  (Read 2316 times)
700WLW
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Re: "HD AM in NJ/NY ?"
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2007, 12:33:51 PM »

Actually, I tried HD Radio in an electonics store, but could get only two stations - the stations were boring and sounded exactly like analog radio, so no need to waste $200 on an HD radio, when I could listen free on the Internet, with AOL Radio. The analog boom-boxes were booming-away, getting many stations.  All of the table-top, and the one HD Radio, were all replaced by other Christmas merchandise. Here's my glorious review on Circuit City, with only 400+ votes, over four months:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Customer-reviews-for-Boston-Acoustics-Recepter-Radio-HD/sem/rpsm/oid/160671/pagen/1/helpfulAction/1/helpfulOid/100456882/sortby/1/order/D/rpem/ccd/productDetailReview.do#tabs

Pretty cool - I made sure, that I was first-in-line to bash HD Radio (actually, the second review got put there, by mistake, but that is ok) !  Also, I have bashed HD Radio, for most HD Radio products, on Amazon and Radio Shack, too !
All of these, have received such few votes, it probably doesn't make much difference, anyway !  Is that, over-the-top enough for you ? 

You still have to wade through my posts - Have a Good Day ! Cheesy

Ya know, I bet if anyone took the time to contact the appropriate people at Circuit City, Amazon and Radio Shack and direct them to this thread, those reviews you're so proud of could disappear.  Hopefully someone who has more time on their hands than me will take the ball and run with it.

It's also good to know that your impressions of HD audio quality were formed in an electronics store with "analog boom-boxes were booming-away."

Personally, I can't make any real judgements about audio quality in that environment and I doubt you can either.

Thanks for once again showing everyone just how flawed your "research" and opinions on HD Radio really are.

"Google Trends Examples"

"Google Trends analyzes a portion of Google web searches to compute how many searches have been done for the terms you enter relative to the total number of searches done on Google over time. We then show you a graph with the results – our search-volume graph... Here you can see how interest in quirky American Idol singer William Hung was declining ever since mid-2004. A typical one-hit wonder?"

http://blog.outer-court.com/archive/2006-05-11-n38.html

"What kind of digital radio are listeners searching for?"

"What a cool analysis Google now provides via Google Trends. It's what folks are searching for - and we can assume that search is a representation of interest."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/10/what_kind_of_di.html

"Google Trends From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"

"Google Trends is a tool from Google Labs that shows the most popularly searched terms from the beginning of 2004 to now. Google Trends charts how often a particular search term is entered relative the total search volume across various regions of the world, and in various languages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Trends

"Google Trends Launches"

"Up to five terms can be compared. And you can also view queries that contain either or two terms, using a vertical bar “|”. More advanced queries can be done as well - see the FAQs for details. Google also puts markers next to major news events that are about that search query, helping to explain surges. Data can be sorted by time, language, geographic location, etc."

http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/05/10/google-trends-launches/

See, it is real difficult - if people are searching for HD Radio, they enter "HD Radio", and same for competing technologies, watch:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22hd+radio%22%2C+%22internet+radio%22%2C+xm%2C+sirius%2C+podcast

What's that flat line ?  Cheesy  A while back, some IBOC supports here also threatened to have my reviews removed, but I contacted Amazon, Circuit City, and Radio Shack and warned them, and they responded, that they do not take reviews off their websites, unless inappropriate, or unrelated reviews are posted - too bad !  Cheesy  Sales of HD radios are so anemic, that removing negative reviews would make no difference, anyway - go for it !  Now, I just have to wait, and see, if Sharper Image accepts reviews ! Cheesy




« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 12:36:38 PM by 700WLW » Logged
EasyPeazy
Guest
Re: "HD AM in NJ/NY ?"
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2007, 12:53:25 PM »

Actually, I tried HD Radio in an electonics store, but could get only two stations - the stations were boring and sounded exactly like analog radio, so no need to waste $200 on an HD radio, when I could listen free on the Internet, with AOL Radio. The analog boom-boxes were booming-away, getting many stations.  All of the table-top, and the one HD Radio, were all replaced by other Christmas merchandise. Here's my glorious review on Circuit City, with only 400+ votes, over four months:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Customer-reviews-for-Boston-Acoustics-Recepter-Radio-HD/sem/rpsm/oid/160671/pagen/1/helpfulAction/1/helpfulOid/100456882/sortby/1/order/D/rpem/ccd/productDetailReview.do#tabs

Pretty cool - I made sure, that I was first-in-line to bash HD Radio (actually, the second review got put there, by mistake, but that is ok) !  Also, I have bashed HD Radio, for most HD Radio products, on Amazon and Radio Shack, too !
All of these, have received such few votes, it probably doesn't make much difference, anyway !  Is that, over-the-top enough for you ? 

You still have to wade through my posts - Have a Good Day ! Cheesy

Ya know, I bet if anyone took the time to contact the appropriate people at Circuit City, Amazon and Radio Shack and direct them to this thread, those reviews you're so proud of could disappear.  Hopefully someone who has more time on their hands than me will take the ball and run with it.

It's also good to know that your impressions of HD audio quality were formed in an electronics store with "analog boom-boxes were booming-away."

Personally, I can't make any real judgements about audio quality in that environment and I doubt you can either.

Thanks for once again showing everyone just how flawed your "research" and opinions on HD Radio really are.

"Google Trends Examples"

"Google Trends analyzes a portion of Google web searches to compute how many searches have been done for the terms you enter relative to the total number of searches done on Google over time. We then show you a graph with the results – our search-volume graph... Here you can see how interest in quirky American Idol singer William Hung was declining ever since mid-2004. A typical one-hit wonder?"

http://blog.outer-court.com/archive/2006-05-11-n38.html

"What kind of digital radio are listeners searching for?"

"What a cool analysis Google now provides via Google Trends. It's what folks are searching for - and we can assume that search is a representation of interest."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/10/what_kind_of_di.html

"Google Trends From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"

"Google Trends is a tool from Google Labs that shows the most popularly searched terms from the beginning of 2004 to now. Google Trends charts how often a particular search term is entered relative the total search volume across various regions of the world, and in various languages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Trends

"Google Trends Launches"

"Up to five terms can be compared. And you can also view queries that contain either or two terms, using a vertical bar “|”. More advanced queries can be done as well - see the FAQs for details. Google also puts markers next to major news events that are about that search query, helping to explain surges. Data can be sorted by time, language, geographic location, etc."

http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/05/10/google-trends-launches/

See, it is real difficult - if people are searching for HD Radio, they enter "HD Radio", and same for competing technologies, watch:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22hd+radio%22%2C+%22internet+radio%22%2C+xm%2C+sirius%2C+podcast

What's that flat line ?  Cheesy  A while back, some IBOC supports here also threatened to have my reviews removed, but I contacted Amazon, Circuit City, and Radio Shack and warned them, and they responded, that they do not take reviews off their websites, unless inappropriate, or unrelated reviews are posted - too bad !  Cheesy  Sales of HD radios are so anemic, that removing negative reviews would make no difference, anyway - go for it !  Now, I just have to wait, and see, if Sharper Image accepts reviews ! Cheesy

Of course, the Google Trends data you cite is totally inaccurate.  It includes many searches for the other technologies you list that have absolutely nothing to do with consumer interest.

I'll be more than happy to point this out every time you push this faulty data.
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StevenNOLA
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Posts: 603

Radio Listener


Re: "HD AM in NJ/NY ?"
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2007, 01:03:49 PM »



Poor ground connectivity and the short spacing of stations make the Northeastern US a different ballgame compared with most of the country. 90 miles away you're in another major market and there are probably more 50 K stations on this region than in any other part of the US. out west altought they have 50K stations most are directional west  and so you're not getting hit with erp's of over 300 Kw or greater as we are here. For instance, while I can hear NYC AM stations almost like locals in places like Hartford and Philladelphia, in the NYC metro area the same can not be said for any of the Philadelphia 50 stations or WTIC in Hartford. There is absolutely no part of the FM band without a station, which makes using those low power I-Pod FM transmitters a real challenge to use. I will add though, that one HD station which is over 60 miles from my house (WAWZ) comes in with a solid signal on both the HD 1 & 2 streams. With my Sangean HD tuner I can hear a station which is about 120 miles south east of me (WPUR) even though I have two local first adjacents on either side of it. The signal is weak and most people wouldn't bother but it's very dx-able and consistent. In the final analysis from a business standpoint, as long  as you can cover AM & to a lesser extent PM drive, the rest of the day is of secondary importance. Running IBOC after dark would be important is the audience numbers were there. They really aren't. It's interesting and may attest to my location but while I can hear some stations from the central time zone, where they'd have to turn of their IBOC an hour after our sundown, they cause no interference to any station that I can hear.

Interesting.  Being from Louisiana, ground conductivity explains why I'm accustomed to 50kw AM stations reaching 200+ miles (groundwave).  WWL-870 New Orleans, for example, is listenable from just east of downtown Houston to east of Panama City, Florida (covering over 600 miles of I-10).  Also, this station has a dynamite nighttime signal.  I've recieved it clearly as far away as Chicago and the Delmarva Peninsula.  From the Houston metro (my location), the furthest reliable nightime signal I can think of is WSB-750 Atlanta and WSM-650 Nashville.  I would like to check out some east coast stations if there are any reaching down here, especially from the NY/NJ/Philly area.  I know I can listen online but it's not as much fun.  I will also look up some HD AM stations to my west that are running 50kw to see if I can pick them up near sunset.  Something I never thought about trying.

Steven
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R.F. Burns
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Posts: 1226


Re: "HD AM in NJ/NY ?"
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2007, 02:18:09 PM »

You might consider wfan - 660, wabc - 770, and wcbs - 880 (If you can null out the Cuban QRM). I know I can hear each of them in Tampa on a table radio.They are each 50 K Non Directional. then there's WOR which is at 710 and might be listenable there. They are also IBOC. We have other 50 K stations but those are the only IBOC stations I am aware of.
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700WLW
Guest
Re: "HD AM in NJ/NY ?"
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2007, 05:34:31 PM »


Google Trends is nothing, but about consumer interest - it is what, consumers are searching for:

"What kind of digital radio are listeners searching for?"

"What a cool analysis Google now provides via Google Trends. It's what folks are searching for - and we can assume that search is a representation of interest."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/10/what_kind_of_di.html

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EasyPeazy
Guest
Re: "HD AM in NJ/NY ?"
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2007, 05:41:14 PM »

Google Trends is nothing, but about consumer interest - it is what, consumers are searching for:

"What kind of digital radio are listeners searching for?"

"What a cool analysis Google now provides via Google Trends. It's what folks are searching for - and we can assume that search is a representation of interest."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/10/what_kind_of_di.html

Sorry - until they develop a way to filter out searches that have nothing to do with consumer interest - like searches about XM's CEO - this will not be valid information.
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DavidEduardo
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Posts: 24773

“Poetry is nearer to vital truth than history."


Re: "HD AM in NJ/NY ?"
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2007, 11:51:49 PM »


I am unaccepting of the non-cancellation of the IBOC sidebands, the impossibly critical center-tuning required, and the imposed
high-frequency cut-off, all these ruining my reception of the host analog everywhere WITHIN the defined market.

Bob Orban, in ba.broadcast, mentions the development of recent Optimods and a sample of consumer receivers: at 4.1 kHz, receivers were 10 db down! Rolling at 5, 6 or 7 kHz (the latter two are possible) produces no impact on consumer grade AM radios. In fact, in many cases, it improves it.

Quote
The muffling of AM analog is a totally manufactured problem.
It's much easier and cheaper to design a proper AM receiver with 10-15 Khz of IF bandwidth.

It's too late to change anything in this area. Manufacturers know nobody under 45 or 50 cares about AM, so they save money with the cheapest AM stage possible.

Quote
With such a complacent attitude about degrading standards and purity, it would be small stretch to think you might be accepting about
 loosening other standards.

The biggest issue is the increase of man made noise. This forces stations to focus only on the most intense signal areas.

And as to changing standards, anything that might make AM viable in the future is a good idea. Staying as we are is not.

Quote

I don't see any justification for marginalizing any listeners, or relaxing engineering standards.

We are talking about changing standards to reflect reality.

AM standards were implemented when most listening was in the evening, and much of it by skywave, before TV changed the model. Today, AM gets practiacally no listening in the evening, and skywave listening is made irrelevant  by 14,000 total stations in the US (when the band was reorganized in the early 30's, there were only a few over 500 stations.

Quote
There won't be any younger listeners until the content adresses them.

It has been proven that AM formats, when put on FM attract vastly more 35-54 listening. The fact is that younger listeners will not tolerate AM as it is in its analog form.


Quote
Do you not remember when AMs had to run proofs, back when they sounded good?
See how much better the radio sounds since engineers are no longer required?


Yeah, I remeber when equipment was not stable, and tube deterioration changed the specs of a whole station. Today's gear is reliable, and T1 STLs and digital processors and test gear pretty much obviate the need for a proof. In fact, I had some incredible sounding AMs in the 60's and never did a proof. I think most AMs today, at least the viable ones, sound better.

Put an SAS board fed by an uncompressed AudioVault, an Optimod, a T1 link and a Nautel RX 50 and you have a really nice sounding station... better than stuff of the 60's coming off Yards and through Audimax and Volumax chains fed into Marti STLs and high level plate modulated transmitters with unbalanced modulators.

Quote
Being in the business so long, you have completely forgotten that radio was never defined by the FCC as a BUSINESS, but a SERVICE.

My concern is for what th elistener wants. It all falls in place if you pay attention to listners. Since the 20's, radio has been a business, as that is the way the programming gets out of the speakers.

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Cal Stymes
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Re: "HD AM in NJ/NY ?"
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2007, 06:36:12 AM »

StevenNOLA proclaimed:

Quote
To say AM HD is complete failure is incorrect.

If it isn't a complete failure then it causes all sorts of adjacent channel interference and is definitely not ready for "prime time".  That makes it pretty bad, wouldn't you say?

Quote
Nighttime operation is a different story and may not be a good idea.

"May" not be a good idea?  Well ok.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion.  Smiley

Quote
I would like to know how they perform in the dense NJ/NY area FROM SOMEONE WHO IS AN OWNER.

I am an owner of two BA receivers.  They both work like crap.  These receivers refuse to decode the HD signals of several large powerhouse AM stations IN Manhattan where we are far from having "perfect" reception.  This ranges from WOR which is in New Jersey and west from my location (almost line of site... a MAJOR disappointment) and WCBS which is in the Bronx and northeast from my location.

It was so frustrating that I gave up and am done trying.  And then I must say what I got acclimated to as lousy sounding analog audio from WCBS is now much better because their HD is apparently broken at the moment.  Thank goodness for small favors!
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R.F. Burns
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Posts: 1226


Re: "HD AM in NJ/NY ?"
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2007, 06:07:12 AM »


Quote
If it isn't a complete failure then it causes all sorts of adjacent channel interference and is definitely not ready for "prime time".  That makes it pretty bad, wouldn't you say?
Quote

Could you please tell us which adjacent channel stations you can comfortably listen to at your location? Are you saying that the IBOC sidebands are so strong that they interfere within a first adjacents local coverage area? Why haven't I noticed that problem and I travel a good deal.



Quote
"May" not be a good idea?  Well ok.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion.  Smiley
Quote


Yes they are, thank goodness we live in a country where that is so, right?



I am an owner of two BA receivers.  They both work like crap.  These receivers refuse to decode the HD signals of several large powerhouse AM stations IN Manhattan where we are far from having "perfect" reception.  This ranges from WOR which is in New Jersey and west from my location (almost line of site... a MAJOR disappointment) and WCBS which is in the Bronx and northeast from my location.

It was so frustrating that I gave up and am done trying.  And then I must say what I got acclimated to as lousy sounding analog audio from WCBS is now much better because their HD is apparently broken at the moment.  Thank goodness for small favors!


It's already been proven that  there are both good and bad receptors and apparently you have a bad one. Neither appears to be all that sensitive due to a very noisy LED section. It's a shielding problem that causes many of the radios to appear to be dead. That has nothing to do with the technology. It's a problem radio. I own the B.A. and the first one I received was awful. I brought it right back to the dealer and thankfully the other one they had in stock (A display model) worked fine. My Sangean tuner however is the most sensitive FM radio I have ever owned. I hear stations on it that I can't hear on any other radio in the house. The AM section is OK, but the output is way too hot for my amplifier. I can pad it down but I look at it as a work in progress and in my opinion due to the low bit rate  the artifacts make it unacceptable. That said the IBOC sidebands cause no problem for me. As to WCBS's lousy analogue audio, I can tell you that no matter what they use so much processing due to lousy board work that their audio hasn't sounded good in years.
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Cal Stymes
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Posts: 479


Re: "HD AM in NJ/NY ?"
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2007, 06:44:20 AM »

R.F. Burns queried:

Quote
Could you please tell us which adjacent channel stations you can comfortably listen to at your location?

All AM reception in Manhattan is problematical, frought with electrical/computer noise interference and other nasties.  Generally speaking, if the AM station's transmitter is west of Manhattan in the swamps of NJ then the signals are better.  If the AM station's transmitter is anywhere else then there are reception problems.

Quote
Are you saying that the IBOC sidebands are so strong that they interfere within a first adjacents local coverage area?

I am saying that there are several smaller AM stations in shadow areas surrounding large metropolitan areas (including NYC) that are being interfered with by IBOC signals on the higher power AM stations in regions where they formerly had no problems.  These are regions in which these stations were formerly able to sell advertising time and are no longer able to because they can no longer be heard there.  Are these regions (strictly speaking) protected by "primary coverage"?  I don't know.  But there are legal actions pending over several of these interference cases and you WILL start to hear about them.

Quote
Why haven't I noticed that problem and I travel a good deal.

I don't know.

Quote
It's already been proven that there are both good and bad receptors and apparently you have a bad one.

I have two bad ones.

Quote
Neither appears to be all that sensitive due to a very noisy LED section.  It's a shielding problem that causes many of the radios to appear to be dead.  That has nothing to do with the technology.  It's a problem radio.

It is also very poor quality control.

Quote
I own the B.A. and the first one I received was awful.  I brought it right back to the dealer and thankfully the other one they had in stock (A display model) worked fine.  My Sangean tuner however is the most sensitive FM radio I have ever owned.  I hear stations on it that I can't hear on any other radio in the house.  The AM section is OK, but the output is way too hot for my amplifier.  I can pad it down but I look at it as a work in progress and in my opinion due to the low bit rate the artifacts make it unacceptable.  That said the IBOC sidebands cause no problem for me.

That's great to hear.

Quote
As to WCBS's lousy analogue audio, I can tell you that no matter what they use so much processing due to lousy board work that their audio hasn't sounded good in years.

Yes, their "baseline" audio leaves much to be desired (no engineers = bad board work).  However, when they turn on IBOC the audio really goes to hell.  It had been worse when they first fired up IBOC but somebody must have done something because it did get better (but it is still not as good as it is when the IBOC signals are off).
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