"HD AM in NJ/NY ?"

[R.F. Burns]

R.F. Burns queried:

Could you please tell us which adjacent channel stations you can comfortably listen to at your location?

All AM reception in Manhattan is problematical, frought with electrical/computer noise interference and other nasties.  Generally speaking, if the AM station's transmitter is west of Manhattan in the swamps of NJ then the signals are better.  If the AM station's transmitter is anywhere else then there are reception problems.
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You mean the West side of Manhattan, If you are east of 6th ave, the opposite would be true. The issues here are that most stations aren't directional west and trasnmitting from the east. The only one I can think of is WQEW and at 1560 at that frequency even with 50K the ground wave coverage with the terrible ground conductivity in this region makes it an unfare competition. The signals origionating in NJ for the most part have erp levels over 100's of KW and that has nothing to do with HD as a technology. 

Are you saying that the IBOC sidebands are so strong that they interfere within a first adjacents local coverage area?

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I am saying that there are several smaller AM stations in shadow areas surrounding large metropolitan areas (including NYC) that are being interfered with by IBOC signals on the higher power AM stations in regions where they formerly had no problems.  These are regions in which these stations were formerly able to sell advertising time and are no longer able to because they can no longer be heard there.  Are these regions (strictly speaking) protected by "primary coverage"?  I don't know.  But there are legal actions pending over several of these interference cases and you WILL start to hear about them.
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This is plain wrong. Iboc has nothing to do with the interference and the ability to get a groundwave signal into Manhattan. What does effect that level of RF reaching a typical radio in NYC is first power output of the station. Let's say we have a 1 K station located 30 miles from Manhattan. A radio located in midtown has to contend with so much RF from so many sources, many of which are high power (Say 300,000 or more watts ERP from say a WINS at 1010) that receiving that relatively small amount of RF from a low powered distant station is a no go. There's a suburban station which was purchased by a Chicago are operator who thought that their 1K signal would provide a solid signal into Brooklyn. Of course anyone who knows this market would say this is crazy, but they felt because their lowe power suburban station in the midwest did an adequate job of covering Chicagos Polish speaking population, the same would hold true here. Ground conductivity alone makes this a failed argument. I've heard a recording from this station dating back to the early to mid 60's which was recorded at WNEW's east side studios and when this stations ground system was brand new (the station transmits from a swamp) and the signal was noisy and weak and about the same as it is today in that area of the city. You could never hear say WAEB 790 from Allentown in NYC due to WABC's pressence. The same holds true today. 

Why haven't I noticed that problem and I travel a good deal.

I don't know.

It's already been proven that there are both good and bad receptors and apparently you have a bad one.

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I have two bad ones.
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 I have one good one

Neither appears to be all that sensitive due to a very noisy LED section.  It's a shielding problem that causes many of the radios to appear to be dead.  That has nothing to do with the technology.  It's a problem radio.

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It is also very poor quality control.

Agreed, but what does that have to do with IBOC as a technology. It's like saying cars are bad because some lemons have been manufactured. Place the blame where it's deserved.

I own the B.A. and the first one I received was awful.  I brought it right back to the dealer and thankfully the other one they had in stock (A display model) worked fine.  My Sangean tuner however is the most sensitive FM radio I have ever owned.  I hear stations on it that I can't hear on any other radio in the house.  The AM section is OK, but the output is way too hot for my amplifier.  I can pad it down but I look at it as a work in progress and in my opinion due to the low bit rate the artifacts make it unacceptable.  That said the IBOC sidebands cause no problem for me.
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That's great to hear.

As to WCBS's lousy analogue audio, I can tell you that no matter what they use so much processing due to lousy board work that their audio hasn't sounded good in years.

Yes, their "baseline" audio leaves much to be desired (no engineers = bad board work).  However, when they turn on IBOC the audio really goes to hell.  It had been worse when they first fired up IBOC but somebody must have done something because it did get better (but it is still not as good as it is when the IBOC signals are off).
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Again, the technology isn't the issue, it's a work in progress. Would you have said let's not record sound because the aluminum foil surface sounds noisy or do we work to treak what we have? 

[Tom Wells]

R.F. Burns queried:

Could you please tell us which adjacent channel stations you can comfortably listen to at your location?

All AM reception in Manhattan is problematical, frought with electrical/computer noise interference and other nasties.  Generally speaking, if the AM station's transmitter is west of Manhattan in the swamps of NJ then the signals are better.  If the AM station's transmitter is anywhere else then there are reception problems.

Are you saying that the IBOC sidebands are so strong that they interfere within a first adjacents local coverage area?
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I am saying that there are several smaller AM stations in shadow areas surrounding large metropolitan areas (including NYC) that are being interfered with by IBOC signals on the higher power AM stations in regions where they formerly had no problems.  These are regions in which these stations were formerly able to sell advertising time and are no longer able to because they can no longer be heard there.  Are these regions (strictly speaking) protected by "primary coverage"?  I don't know.  But there are legal actions pending over several of these interference cases and you WILL start to hear about them.
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This is plain wrong. Iboc has nothing to do with the interference and the ability to get a groundwave signal into Manhattan. What does effect that level of RF reaching a typical radio in NYC is first power output of the station. Let's say we have a 1 K station located 30 miles from Manhattan. A radio located in midtown has to contend with so much RF from so many sources, many of which are high power (Say 300,000 or more watts ERP from say a WINS at 1010) that receiving that relatively small amount of RF from a low powered distant station is a no go. There's a suburban station which was purchased by a Chicago are operator who thought that their 1K signal would provide a solid signal into Brooklyn. Of course anyone who knows this market would say this is crazy, but they felt because their lowe power suburban station in the midwest did an adequate job of covering Chicagos Polish speaking population, the same would hold true here. Ground conductivity alone makes this a failed argument. I've heard a recording from this station dating back to the early to mid 60's which was recorded at WNEW's east side studios and when this stations ground system was brand new (the station transmits from a swamp) and the signal was noisy and weak and about the same as it is today in that area of the city. You could never hear say WAEB 790 from Allentown in NYC due to WABC's pressence. The same holds true today. 
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Somehow, I've lost the nesting of the quotes above...  sorry

Mr Birach purchased WNWI, a 250w signal on 1080 in Valparaiso, IN, on the basis of its good signal into Chicago.
The original Xmittr site was on the campus of the best radio engineering school ever (Valparaiso Technical Institute), and when built in 1965, nothing was spared to make the best install possible.  The ground radials were "much more and many" than adequate.
 When they moved to Oak Lawn, IL, and increased to 1kw, the signal in the Chicago metro became full quieting.

But if WHFB Benton Harbor 1060 goes IBOC, we WILL hear the upper IBOC sideband intermodulating with it.
Well, I won't, because I can't understand Polish, Serbian, Chechnian, etc.

There is too much steel in Manhattan for ANY AM to power its way through the whole thing.

Only the side (of Manhattan) toward the toward the station desired will have reliable coverage.

This is the scenario where no additional interference is permissable.

Cal is pointing out that despite "protected" contours, signals are often viable and listenable.

When IBOC is added in such areas, many more people lose real use of their radios than benefit from HD reception.

Who's to say that such listeners should be cut off?  I know I never gave ibiquity the go-ahead to curtail my choices.

I would rather have  analog AM pirates run unfettered than have HD noise splattering the AM.

[R.F. Burns]

Could you list, specifically the  stations, which were once listenable in Manhattan and are no longer listenable? I'd really like to see the list so I can check them myself. By the way, I've read elsewhere and I will restate here, if you think your station or one you used to be able to listen to on a regular basis prior to IBOC is being interfered with, why not get the FCC involved? All it takes is a letter. Just one side note here. I used to be able to listen to WGY on a regular basis when WNYC was on 830 Khz. WGY hasn't been audible here since the WNYC move and that had nothing to do with IBOC.

[Chuck]

I will restate here, if you think your station or one you used to be able to listen to on a regular basis prior to IBOC is being interfered with, why not get the FCC involved?

And I will state (again) that if the alleged interference is beyond the stations Protected Contour, you are out of luck.  Per FCC rules, you are not guaranteed anything past that point and have NO LEGAL RECOURSE. I think you will find that most IBOC interference happens beyond the damaged station's Protected Contour, unless a station is running out of spec.

The problem is many stations do have listeners past their Protected Contour, even though they have no legal rights to those listeners.

[R.F. Burns]

I will restate here, if you think your station or one you used to be able to listen to on a regular basis prior to IBOC is being interfered with, why not get the FCC involved?

And I will state (again) that if the alleged interference is beyond the stations Protected Contour, you are out of luck.  Per FCC rules, you are not guaranteed anything past that point and have NO LEGAL RECOURSE. I think you will find that most IBOC interference happens beyond the damaged station's Protected Contour, unless a station is running out of spec.

The problem is many stations do have listeners past their Protected Contour, even though they have no legal rights to those listeners.





Then I am sorry to say they are out of luck. Let's draw some parallels here. Officer, why did you pull me over when I travel this route every day at 80 MPH and I have never been stopped before. I need to go that speed to get to work on time. How about this one; Sure I am operating without a license but I'm not really causing interference and it's the only place you can here Lutonian lullaby’s in this part of the country. While this all may be true, it holds no water legally and we are a country of laws. Sorry if I don't sound sympathetic.

[Cal Stymes]

R.F. Burns asked:

Could you list, specifically the stations, which were once listenable in Manhattan and are no longer listenable?

I am not talking about stations in Manhattan that are no longer listenable due to IBOC.  I said that on the west side of Manhattan I have a big problem decoding IBOC.  What I originally said about adjacent channel interference has nothing to do with that problem or with listening to radio IN NYC.  To repeat:

I am saying that there are several smaller AM stations in shadow areas surrounding large metropolitan areas (including NYC) that are being interfered with by IBOC signals on the higher power AM stations in regions where they formerly had no problems.  These are regions in which these stations were formerly able to sell advertising time and are no longer able to because they can no longer be heard there.  Are these regions (strictly speaking) protected by "primary coverage"?  I don't know.  But there are legal actions pending over several of these interference cases and you WILL start to hear about them.

By "primary coverage", I MEANT "protected contour".  I am not good with legal broadcasting terms.  I am not talking about Manhattan.  I am talking about areas AROUND Manhattan where smaller stations were formerly heard that can no longer be heard when IBOC is on at a high power station on an adjacent AM channel.

Tom Wells thankfully clarified:

Cal is pointing out that despite "protected" contours, signals are often viable and listenable.

When IBOC is added in such areas, many more people lose real use of their radios than benefit from HD reception.

Who's to say that such listeners should be cut off?  I know I never gave ibiquity the go-ahead to curtail my choices.

I would rather have analog AM pirates run unfettered than have HD noise splattering the AM.

Thank you!  Like I have said before, my radio was working in the suburbs until iBiQuity decided to break it for me!

I know R.F. Burns is confused at this point.  Yes, I listen to radio both IN and OUT of the NYC.

And Chuck further clarified:

And I will state (again) that if the alleged interference is beyond the stations Protected Contour, you are out of luck.  Per FCC rules, you are not guaranteed anything past that point and have NO LEGAL RECOURSE. I think you will find that most IBOC interference happens beyond the damaged station's Protected Contour, unless a station is running out of spec.

Isn't that lovely?

The problem is many stations do have listeners past their Protected Contour, even though they have no legal rights to those listeners.

Too bad for them, eh?

[R.F. Burns]

R.F. Burns asked:

Could you list, specifically the stations, which were once listenable in Manhattan and are no longer listenable?

I am not talking about stations in Manhattan that are no longer listenable due to IBOC.  I said that on the west side of Manhattan I have a big problem decoding IBOC.  What I originally said about adjacent channel interference has nothing to do with that problem or with listening to radio IN NYC.  To repeat:


By "primary coverage", I MEANT "protected contour".  I am not good with legal broadcasting terms.  I am not talking about Manhattan.  I am talking about areas AROUND Manhattan where smaller stations were formerly heard that can no longer be heard when IBOC is on at a high power station on an adjacent AM channel.

Tom Wells thankfully clarified:

Cal is pointing out that despite "protected" contours, signals are often viable and listenable.

I am saying that there are several smaller AM stations in shadow areas surrounding large metropolitan areas (including NYC) that are being interfered with by IBOC signals on the higher power AM stations in regions where they formerly had no problems.  These are regions in which these stations were formerly able to sell advertising time and are no longer able to because they can no longer be heard there.  Are these regions (strictly speaking) protected by "primary coverage"?  I don't know.  But there are legal actions pending over several of these interference cases and you WILL start to hear about them.

NYC is unlike most urbn environments. There are more high powered radio stations in very crowded RF spectrum than in any other place on earth.  As for area stations suffering IBOC interference, if these IBOC signals are in any way interfering with legally operating facilities a letter to the FCC will resolve this problem. I don't know of any suburban station which was at one time audible in Manhattan or its vacinity which is no longer listenable due to IBOC. I can receive 740 from the island, located between 2 IBOC facilities cleanly and they're on long island. Let's see who's being effected now, no one on 640, 650, 680 or 690 in the NYC metro area. Same goes for 750, 760, 780 and 790. 800 is a Conneticut station with no NYC penetration. *60, 870 890 & 900 are also frequencies where no NY area station exists. 850 WREF isn't a viable NY radio station and WRKL at 910 is barely audible in NY and always has had a relatively weak signal in Manhattan. Can you give me some call letters to work with so I can see exemples of this intereference myself?



Funny to hear you say that you can't deocode the IBOC signal on the west side. Last year I brough my B.A. into our building (A major BC facility on the west side) and inside the shielded building I was able to listen to WOR, WNYC AM(They were IBOC at the time) and WADO without any of out locally generated noise (computers etc) which made analogue listening annoying at best. You told me that you have two bad receptors. Could it be that is where your problems lie, not with the technology?

"Too bad for them, eh"

What wil you have me say here? The AM BCB is in deep trouble and has to do something to improve it's sound. None of this wide band AM mono stuff or AM stereo nonsense will work in the real world. What is so difficult to understand here? If the IBOC stations are interfering with stations within thier licensed contour, contact the commision about it, otherwise complaining on boards like this does nothing.

[Chuck]

What is so difficult to understand here? If the IBOC stations are interfering with stations within thier licensed contour, contact the commision about it, otherwise complaining on boards like this does nothing.

No, but it points out the huge flaw in the technology. 

As Tom Wells pointed out, IBOC, especially on AM, is taking away something from listeners that they previously had. Simply put, it's a way thin the herd.  If you are a large broadcaster who chooses to participate in this, it's wonderful. If you are a small broadcaster, all you get is the dirty end of the stick. 

[R.F. Burns]

What is so difficult to understand here? If the IBOC stations are interfering with stations within thier licensed contour, contact the commision about it, otherwise complaining on boards like this does nothing.

No, but it points out the huge flaw in the technology. 

As Tom Wells pointed out, IBOC, especially on AM, is taking away something from listeners that they previously had. Simply put, it's a way thin the herd.  If you are a large broadcaster who chooses to participate in this, it's wonderful. If you are a small broadcaster, all you get is the dirty end of the stick. 





I can't speak for other areas, but in NY we don't have those issues. Please tell me which stations by call letters are losing out to IBOC on AM. So far I read allegations but no specific instances. Please, provide me with call letters, PLEASE.

[Cal Stymes]

R.F. Burns asked:

What is so difficult to understand here? If the IBOC stations are interfering with stations within thier licensed contour, contact the commision about it, otherwise complaining on boards like this does nothing.

To which Chuck replied:

No, but it points out the huge flaw in the technology.

As Tom Wells pointed out, IBOC, especially on AM, is taking away something from listeners that they previously had. Simply put, it's a way thin the herd.  If you are a large broadcaster who chooses to participate in this, it's wonderful. If you are a small broadcaster, all you get is the dirty end of the stick.

To which R.F. Burns insisted:

I can't speak for other areas, but in NY we don't have those issues. Please tell me which stations by call letters are losing out to IBOC on AM. So far I read allegations but no specific instances. Please, provide me with call letters, PLEASE.

Yes in NY we DO have these issues!  Unfortunately, I can't give you call signs of these stations or individuals to contact because up until now this is "privleged" information that the public does not {yet} know about.  In other words, obviously I know something that you don't, and if I were to divulge any MORE information about this, SOMEBODY would get in trouble.  Maybe me.  Get it?

But, if you are REALLY interested in this issue (which I suspect you are not although you are apparently from the NYC area so you might actually enjoy this exercise),  here is what you can do:

1) Divide a clean sheet of paper into four columns, headed:  AM IBOC station, Frequency, 30 KHz. below, 30 KHz. above.

2) In column one, list the major 50 KW AM radio stations in NYC that are running IBOC.

3) In column two, write down list the frequencies next to each station.

4) Now within a radius out from Manhattan of about 60 miles, list every station that you can find which is within 30 KHz. (below and above) of each of the 50 KW flame throwers that are running IBOC.

5) One by one, try and contact their engineering departments and if you are lucky enough to speak to anyone, ask them if they are experiencing any problems because of their adjacent channel 50 KW big guy that is running IBOC.

6) Report your findings back here.  I suspect that they will startle you (since you obviously think that nothing is wrong).