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Author Topic: AM DX IN TROUBLE -- FCC APPROVES NIGHTTIME HD/IBOC ON AM RADIO  (Read 2038 times)
PocketRadio
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Re: AM DX IN TROUBLE -- FCC APPROVES NIGHTTIME HD/IBOC ON AM RADIO
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2007, 02:06:20 PM »

I think that real AM DX'ers will take this change in stride.  After all, who else will tolerate extreme amounts of interference, static and fading just to hear a station they've never "caught" before.

They will probably just note that "...station WXXX was received pre-2007..." or "...station KZZZ was received post-2007..." and keep on straining to catch the farthest station that they possibly can.

Even more, eventually many will begin DX'ing with HD receivers, which will open up another avenue of long-distance catches.

BTW...DX'ing was how I was first interested in radio.  I remember those first catches back in the 60...WHO-Desmoines, KYW-Philadelphia, WGY-Schenectady, and the like.  And they're all still there after all these years.

Later....
Matt Smith, Station Manager
WGSR-TV, Reidsville, NC

There are very few HD radios in consumer hands - 75% of consumers are aware of HD Radio, at some level, yet consumer interest remains flat.  If there is massive interference, all of the nighttime AM talk/new/sports listeners will just abandon AM radio - this destructive technology will just hasten the demise of AM radio. I believe, the main concern, if there are local, adjacent AM-HD 50kw stations that will interfer with incoming skywaves - who knows, adjacent-channel skywaves may interfere with each other. Luckily, in my area there are only three local AM-HD stations (I believe, only one is a 50kw), and they are not adjacent to the distant AM stations that I listen to. Either way, HD/IBOC is broadcasting into thin-air, and destroying the AM band in the process.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 02:09:28 PM by PocketRadio » Logged
PocketRadio
rimember

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Re: AM DX IN TROUBLE -- FCC APPROVES NIGHTTIME HD/IBOC ON AM RADIO
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2007, 02:14:15 PM »

I live about 80 miles north of WHAS 840 and something on 850 is spraying IBOC hiss on them well before sunrise every morning. Makes a super strong station sound weak & fuzzy...yeah...that'll impress the audience. Especially when the whole night time dial gets clogged with this trash. Whoever developed this bill of goods should be banned from broadcasting.

Here is a recent, related article that I posted on the HD Board, by the Washington Post:

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,67241.0.html
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BRNout
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IBOC buzz-kill


Re: AM DX IN TROUBLE -- FCC APPROVES NIGHTTIME HD/IBOC ON AM RADIO (rant)
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2007, 02:45:48 PM »

I am aware that there are many HD cheerleaders here roaming the boards and they won't like my view on this.  Sorry.  But, I think that the proponents of HD have too much mental energy occupied with somehow "saving the AM band" and don't spend enough time using common sense.  The technology is specious enough during the more stable daylight hours, but the AM band will not support this technology at night.  What will happen (if a good percentage of broadcasters flip on HD exciters) is that we'll have a hash-mash of interference that makes all but the closest and strongest stations unlistenable. 

Not to mention that the digital decoder will bounce back and forth between analog and digital with every bit of fade or interference.  It will also drop right out for every lightning strike within 250 miles, taking a few seconds to recover the digital encoding. 

Now to the common sense part: people aren't killing themselves to buy HD radios.  At best, it will be 20 years before they are in the majority (if ever).  Until then, you will have a lot of people who wonder why AM sounds so bad. 

The most successful AM stations - those 50 kw signals that still do well - will see the edges of their markets erode thanks to adjacent or near-adjacent HD stations.  Many of whom still program just as poorly as in plain ol' analog.  An example of this is WWDB 860 in Philly - which interferes badly with WCBS starting in the Trenton area.  And, what does a business talk/brokered format need HD for anyway?  What good does it do?  None.  All it does is render a population of people unable to listen to a much more popular station from an adjacent market.   

I know, I know, if its not in the DMA it gets no consideration and no protection.  That concept gives concrete bunker-like cover to HD broadcasters everywhere....but it is not recognized by the listeners who know nothing about the issue.   All they know is that they lose one of their NY commute station closer to the city than they used to.  And, they will have no more interest in the programming offered on 860 than they have now.  WCBS gets a few less listeners on the fringes and FM/IPODs/etc. benefit yet again.  Meanwhile, WWDB does not benefit.  That's called a 'lose-lose' for AM. 

For the few who do enjoy WWDB, no offense intended.  In fact, you get shortchanged because your analog listening of this station is compromised by the IBOC exciter and it now sounds flatter - and requires extra volume.  Imagine how it would do at night.  Even with an HD radio, the digital signal would fade in and out over most of the market as other stations bounce in and interfere with it.  This makes for annoying listening.  And, before you say "only 10 kHz on either side of the frequency is affected" that's not true for most radios.  Even my best dx receivers from Sony, Sangean and Eton get hash at +/- 20 kHz from a local HD signal.  So do the car radios.  The average listeners don't give a crap what the guys in white coats from Ibiquity have to say about that - all they know is that the ugly interference (hash) spreads across the dial from the offending AM HD station.  WOR's daytime hash is audible at +/- 10 kHz as far away as Downingtown, PA...more than 100 miles from their tx site.

In the meantime, the AM demo will grow older even faster as younger people become even more turned off by the crappy sound of the band (made worse in analog by the use of HD exciters that serve a grand total of 3 listeners). 

This thing is suicide.  Better to simply shut the whole band down than to do this to it.  Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!  Tongue
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 02:53:24 PM by BRNout » Logged
Grrrradio
rimember

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Re: AM DX IN TROUBLE -- FCC APPROVES NIGHTTIME HD/IBOC ON AM RADIO
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2007, 05:36:35 PM »

BRNout, I can confirm... Haven't heard it at night yet, but daytime IBOC hash from WCCO-AM (50 kW on 830) obliterates out to 810 and 850 on my car radio in Prior Lake.  Very occasionally, when I'm further up in the city and thus closer to the tx, it gives me trouble with a country station on 800 that's ordinarily a fringe, but a decently receivable one (even strong enough to overcome engine noise).  KFAN-AM 1130 in Prior Lake destroys FORTY KHZ on either side of its carrier for close to five miles on my car receiver, and at my parents' home four miles away, it splatters everything between 1060 and 1200 on a portable radio.
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Josh C.
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rimember

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One of the few people still using common sense.


Re: AM DX IN TROUBLE -- FCC APPROVES NIGHTTIME HD/IBOC ON AM RADIO
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2007, 08:33:11 PM »

Here in South-Central Michigan:

550 WKRC no longer comes in at all (it used to).
610 WTVN extends out 30kHz on either side, wreaking havoc with 590 WKZO in the critical hours.
700 WLW no longer comes in.
760 WJR is barely listenable under it's own noise, which extends out 30 kHz on either side.
870 WKAR is barely audible under the noise (at least you can tell at first listen that there's even audio under WJR's hash... you have to listen very closely to even determine there is audio on WKAR anymore)
950 WWJ throws has out 30 kHz in either direction, wreaking havoc on 970 WKHM.
1190 WOWO is at least audible... listenable, even... but they throw hash out 30kHz up and down the dial.

I'm guessing other Detroit and Chicago stations are adding to the digital noise as well, as I'm hearing it all up and down the AM band these days.  I don't know if any AM's in Grand Rapids or Lansing are running IB(A)C yet, but if they are, they're probably causing problems around here too.  I'll tell you this much: when I'm hearing static on the AM band similar to the static that naturally occurs on FM, something's wrong.
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- Jimmy James, Owner, WNYX New York.

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Tom Wells
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Re: AM DX IN TROUBLE -- FCC APPROVES NIGHTTIME HD/IBOC ON AM RADIO
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2007, 09:35:59 PM »

I'm guessing other Detroit and Chicago stations are adding to the digital noise as well, as I'm hearing it all up and down the AM band these days.  I don't know if any AM's in Grand Rapids or Lansing are running IB(A)C yet, but if they are, they're probably causing problems around here too.  I'll tell you this much: when I'm hearing static on the AM band similar to the static that naturally occurs on FM, something's wrong.

Like Solar flares, which we equate with radio failure.

Today  and yesterday I was driving from Chicago to Elkhart, Indiana and back, listening to the IBOC sidebands of WLS 890 wipe out WGTO 910 Cassopolis Michigan, reducing its useful coverage area to one-third of what it formerly enjoyed to the west and south.

I stopped and recorded the destruction on my laptop at a point where upper sideband is clean, but center tuning is awful, and the lower sideband is devastated.

I may post a link to a recording of this atocity on  the HD board, as this was recorded in the station's primary coverage area.
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Valparaiso Technical Institute 1982, Analog engineer, AM pt 15, inventor with 2 issued patents, former SW pirate. Now offering antique radio repair/restoration and alignment.  Stop just wishing that old radio worked!
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trusty
rimember

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Re: AM DX IN TROUBLE -- FCC APPROVES NIGHTTIME HD/IBOC ON AM RADIO
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2007, 09:57:45 PM »

Looks like the lawyers are gonna be the winners on this issue. Undecided
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schmave
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Re: AM DX IN TROUBLE -- FCC APPROVES NIGHTTIME HD/IBOC ON AM RADIO
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2007, 10:19:34 PM »

Here in South-Central Michigan:

550 WKRC no longer comes in at all (it used to).
610 WTVN extends out 30kHz on either side, wreaking havoc with 590 WKZO in the critical hours.
700 WLW no longer comes in.
760 WJR is barely listenable under it's own noise, which extends out 30 kHz on either side.
870 WKAR is barely audible under the noise (at least you can tell at first listen that there's even audio under WJR's hash... you have to listen very closely to even determine there is audio on WKAR anymore)
950 WWJ throws has out 30 kHz in either direction, wreaking havoc on 970 WKHM.
1190 WOWO is at least audible... listenable, even... but they throw hash out 30kHz up and down the dial.

I'm guessing other Detroit and Chicago stations are adding to the digital noise as well, as I'm hearing it all up and down the AM band these days.  I don't know if any AM's in Grand Rapids or Lansing are running IB(A)C yet, but if they are, they're probably causing problems around here too.  I'll tell you this much: when I'm hearing static on the AM band similar to the static that naturally occurs on FM, something's wrong.

From Columbus, a few points and/or questions ...
WTVN hasn't been running IBOC for several months now. Is it WSCR and WGN causing WLW to disappear up in your area? In recent times when I've driven across northern Indiana en route to Chicago, all the IBOC 50Ks run all over each other. Splatter from WLW begins to appear on WGN's signal west of Fort Wayne, and vice versa.
You can hear WJR as far west as South Bend and Plymouth, but the hash from WBBM is all over the place.
Hate it. Just hate it. But I don't know what anyone can do about it.
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Josh C.
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rimember

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One of the few people still using common sense.


Re: AM DX IN TROUBLE -- FCC APPROVES NIGHTTIME HD/IBOC ON AM RADIO
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2007, 02:14:32 AM »

Something was sure blasting hash around WTVN last time I tried to listen.  It hasn't been that long... only a month or so since I last checked.  Could be another station's noise I was hearing, though I'm not exactly sure whose it would be.  As for the question of WLW, I'm not sure it's the Chicago stations having any effect.  While WSCR may be a factor, WGN doesn't come in here during the daytime at all.  Hasn't for some time... even before IB(A)C.  It's hard even picking them up at night unless conditions are right.  And like I said, WJR is audible, but even where I am, closer than Fort Wayne, it's own hash walks over it.  WBBM could definitely be a factor in that, too.  They're pretty strong here at night, and I've been able to pick them up during the day on several occasions, so I have no doubt their signal is strong enough here to screw around with WJR.
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"You don't drop a piranha in the kiddie pool and stick around to watch the bubbles!"
- Jimmy James, Owner, WNYX New York.

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BobOnTheJob
Indiana's Circuit Ridin' Radio Engineer
rimember

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Re: AM DX IN TROUBLE -- FCC APPROVES NIGHTTIME HD/IBOC ON AM RADIO
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2007, 09:54:53 AM »

Looks like the lawyers are gonna be the winners on this issue. Undecided

I am amazed that someone hasn't already sued over loss of coverage/station value thanks to IBOC. That applies to AM and FM. Example, WORX 96.7 Madison, Indiana was listenable on I-275 in northern KY until 96.5 on WLW's tower turned the IBOC on a few years ago. Now it's TOTAL hiss...all traces of WORX are gone. With the number of people who drive to Northern KY from Madison to work and who ALL must now change stations on their commute, you can't tell me that the value of WORX hasn't been impacted.
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When I started in radio in 1967, most broadcast equipment used tube technology, all recorded music was played from records on a turntable by live DJ's, there was no satellite delivery...and radio was fun.
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