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Author Topic: Your true feelings on the diary or PPM's  (Read 3592 times)
bobbybooey
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Re: Your true feelings on the diary or PPM's
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2007, 07:50:30 PM »

The unfortunate truth is that all of this is voodoo.  To sample a couple of thousand people in a city of 3 million is a ridiculous and pointless exercise.  And the fact that it governs people's lives, families and livelihoods is an abomination. 

Sounds like someone's never taken a statistics course... mathematically it really is an acceptable sampling of the market.
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j1bad
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Re: Your true feelings on the diary or PPM's
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2007, 08:40:41 PM »

"As an aside, I was in a top 15 market where for two years there were no ratings. The result was that buyers made "take it or leave it" offers and market billing fell by about 50% in that time."

David,

Do you know why agencies would do this?  I realize they're trying to get better rates, but just because a market didn't have arbitron for a period of time doesn't mean people aren't listening to the radio.  Is it strictly a rate issue?  Because that would seem awfully stupid on the part of the agency to not use radio for a client just because they don't have ratings.  If an agency is placing a buy for zit cream...do they really need ratings to tell you that you should probably be on the Top 40?  Especially if it's one you know historically does well.  If you're placing a buy for Ford Trucks, I'd think it's a pretty safe play, even without ratings, to be on the country, rock, sports stations.  And if billing dropped off %50 then what other media did they move the money too?  And what did the clients of these agencies think of this?
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tengallonhat
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Re: Your true feelings on the diary or PPM's
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2007, 10:42:57 PM »

It's chilling...perhaps frightening...to find so many defenders of Arbitron.  It's clear that you have all had a healthy dose of their Kool-Aid...which is readily available in written form at any NAB.  You won't have any trouble finding their booth, because it is the size of an airplane hangar.  I disagree with so much of what has been said that I don't know where to start.  To witness the comparatively meteoric rise of The Point when the PPM came out and suggest that diary results have been replicated by this new methodology is kind of a shocker.  To suggest that most local direct advertisers have multimedia campaigns is downright ignorant (unless you are talking about car dealers...most of which use agencies of some sort or another). And to point out that Arbitron has to be affordable to radio stations is to completely miss the point.  The biggest abusers of the Arbitron system are the ad agencies and they pay a fraction of what radio stations pay to use the service.

And I have taken a statistics course by the way but it doesn't provide an explanation for why a vast percentage of a rock station's cume would suddenly abandon Led Zep for Garth Brooks in a 13 week period...which happened in Houston in the 90's along with dozens of other horror stories that resulted in PD's renting U-Hauls.

To paint Arbitron as some benevolent, impartial third party interested in truth and fair play for all is to give credit where credit isn't due.  Any system that gambles with people's livelihoods by depending on the masses' willingness to provide factual information in exchange for A DOLLAR is not living in the real world.

And any system that can be manipulated by a 300 point per week TV campaign, The Birthday Game, or a multiple car giveaway was definitely in need of an overhaul.  Are we saying that the PPM is it?  Not according to NABOB and dozens of others.

The PPM is clearly a case of Ready, Fire, Aim.

That's my (clearly unpopular) take on this flawed system.


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Radioman100
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Re: Your true feelings on the diary or PPM's
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2007, 11:32:46 PM »

It's chilling...perhaps frightening...to find so many defenders of Arbitron.  It's clear that you have all had a healthy dose of their Kool-Aid...which is readily available in written form at any NAB.  You won't have any trouble finding their booth, because it is the size of an airplane hangar.  I disagree with so much of what has been said that I don't know where to start.  To witness the comparatively meteoric rise of The Point when the PPM came out and suggest that diary results have been replicated by this new methodology is kind of a shocker.  To suggest that most local direct advertisers have multimedia campaigns is downright ignorant (unless you are talking about car dealers...most of which use agencies of some sort or another). And to point out that Arbitron has to be affordable to radio stations is to completely miss the point.  The biggest abusers of the Arbitron system are the ad agencies and they pay a fraction of what radio stations pay to use the service.

And I have taken a statistics course by the way but it doesn't provide an explanation for why a vast percentage of a rock station's cume would suddenly abandon Led Zep for Garth Brooks in a 13 week period...which happened in Houston in the 90's along with dozens of other horror stories that resulted in PD's renting U-Hauls.

To paint Arbitron as some benevolent, impartial third party interested in truth and fair play for all is to give credit where credit isn't due.  Any system that gambles with people's livelihoods by depending on the masses' willingness to provide factual information in exchange for A DOLLAR is not living in the real world.

And any system that can be manipulated by a 300 point per week TV campaign, The Birthday Game, or a multiple car giveaway was definitely in need of an overhaul.  Are we saying that the PPM is it?  Not according to NABOB and dozens of others.

The PPM is clearly a case of Ready, Fire, Aim.

That's my (clearly unpopular) take on this flawed system.

I wouldn't suggest that the diary methodology is even remotely accurate.  Never has been, never will be.  Personally, I didn't have a problem with it because I was always successful manipulating it, but I'm a lot more comfortable with PPM because it's not so easy to manipulate, and it removes personal preference from the equation.  Despite Arbitron's admonitions against it, I can't help but think paper diaries have always been mostly a record of preference rather than actual radio listening.  I suppose that's why the P in P1, P2, etc. stands for preference!

As you can see from the huge plummet of KMJQ, a lot of people were reporting listening to the station a lot more than they actually were.  They may have wished they were listening to Majic, but were probably listening (a lot) to radios set to KODA by their bosses.  I frequent a Subway where their radio is always on a country station.  The employees are mostly black.  One time I asked if someone working there was a country fan.  Yup!  The owner.  They told me changing the radio is a firing offense.

Do you seriously think any of those black employees at Subway would ever write down listening to KKBQ for 8 hours a day?

PPM may not be perfect, but it's a huge step in the right direction.
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DavidEduardo
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Re: Your true feelings on the diary or PPM's
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2007, 11:54:35 PM »

Do you know why agencies would do this?  I realize they're trying to get better rates, but just because a market didn't have arbitron for a period of time doesn't mean people aren't listening to the radio. 

This was prior to Arbitron being in the market... after the hiatus, we got The Pulse. In any case, agencies that have no proof of audience will negotiate based on a station having no provable audience. Agencies look for benefits for the client, and hammer the media. It is just the way things are.

Quote
Is it strictly a rate issue?  Because that would seem awfully stupid on the part of the agency to not use radio for a client just because they don't have ratings. 

They used radio, but the attitude was that there was no way to justify any rate, so it was take it or leave it.

Quote
If an agency is placing a buy for zit cream...do they really need ratings to tell you that you should probably be on the Top 40?  Especially if it's one you know historically does well.  If you're placing a buy for Ford Trucks, I'd think it's a pretty safe play, even without ratings, to be on the country, rock, sports stations.  And if billing dropped off %50 then what other media did they move the money too?  And what did the clients of these agencies think of this?

Clients loved it... the agencies got radio for less than the year before, so there was more money for TV. Agencies only put  tiny bit in radio, but love TV because they cqn charge lots for TV creative.
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DavidEduardo
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Re: Your true feelings on the diary or PPM's
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2007, 12:10:09 AM »

It's chilling...perhaps frightening...to find so many defenders of Arbitron.  It's clear that you have all had a healthy dose of their Kool-Aid...which is readily available in written form at any NAB.  You won't have any trouble finding their booth, because it is the size of an airplane hangar.  I disagree with so much of what has been said that I don't know where to start.  To witness the comparatively meteoric rise of The Point when the PPM came out and suggest that diary results have been replicated by this new methodology is kind of a shocker.

The difference is that PPM results are so compacted that there is not much difference between #5 and #15. And the results are not replicated... they are similar in share, very different in TSL and very different in cume. But on P1 and P2, they are even closer than in the share tables.

Quote
  To suggest that most local direct advertisers have multimedia campaigns is downright ignorant (unless you are talking about car dealers...most of which use agencies of some sort or another).

In larger markets, single location advertisers generally use targeted direct mail or neighborhood cable or suburban print. They can not afford mass market full coverage radio.

Quote
And to point out that Arbitron has to be affordable to radio stations is to completely miss the point. 

It DOES have to be affordable, or stations would not sponsor it, and Arbitron would leave the market. It's a balance of a reliable sample vs. price for each subscriber.

Quote
The biggest abusers of the Arbitron system are the ad agencies and they pay a fraction of what radio stations pay to use the service.

Ad agencys pay cost for Arbitron. They do not share in the expense of doing the survey, they just pay the cost for delivering the results. The only purpose of doing ratings is to have a sales tool to help set pricing, and agencies use ratings to negotiate price. There is no abuse there.

Quote
And I have taken a statistics course by the way but it doesn't provide an explanation for why a vast percentage of a rock station's cume would suddenly abandon Led Zep for Garth Brooks in a 13 week period...which happened in Houston in the 90's along with dozens of other horror stories that resulted in PD's renting U-Hauls.

Many stations are cyclical, based on format appeal. And there is the one time in many that the statistical error is more than one standard error. In general, the diary results were stable, and reasonable.

Quote
To paint Arbitron as some benevolent, impartial third party interested in truth and fair play for all is to give credit where credit isn't due.  Any system that gambles with people's livelihoods by depending on the masses' willingness to provide factual information in exchange for A DOLLAR is not living in the real world.

Arbitron is a business and wants to make a profit. So is radio. When the goals are in congruence, all are satisfied. And the fact is, not eveyone got a dollar (DST) and the PPM pays like a frequent flier program, not by the meter.

The system is not perfect... only a census can approach perfection, and a quarterly census in Houston for radio listening would cost more than the total billings of all radio stations. So we make do with a salmple, and understand that the results are estimates and will wobble a bit, but that is not important within the buying function.

Quote
And any system that can be manipulated by a 300 point per week TV campaign, The Birthday Game, or a multiple car giveaway was definitely in need of an overhaul.  Are we saying that the PPM is it?  Not according to NABOB and dozens of others.

The fact is that contests can change listening, just like advertising heavily can affect sales. That is why both are done... if a station can bring up ratings 52 weeks a year, then the advertiser does not care why... as long as it sustains the listening.

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its time w (your name)
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Re: Your true feelings on the diary or PPM's
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2007, 07:26:58 AM »

The unfortunate truth is that all of this is voodoo.  To sample a couple of thousand people in a city of 3 million is a ridiculous and pointless exercise. 
Beautiful and well said, popular or not.   Dare to disagree with "experts," will you?   

I do, however, wish that success truly mattered, even if measured by a flawed system.    It looks to me like the more
they fail, the harder they do exactly what caused them to fail, and the more stubbornly they "stay the course."   Not naming any names, of course.   Somebody do a rhyme for me here.   
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bobbybooey
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Re: Your true feelings on the diary or PPM's
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2007, 08:41:06 AM »



And I have taken a statistics course by the way but it doesn't provide an explanation for why a vast percentage of a rock station's cume would suddenly abandon Led Zep for Garth Brooks in a 13 week period...which happened in Houston in the 90's along with dozens of other horror stories that resulted in PD's renting U-Hauls.

To paint Arbitron as some benevolent, impartial third party interested in truth and fair play for all is to give credit where credit isn't due.  Any system that gambles with people's livelihoods by depending on the masses' willingness to provide factual information in exchange for A DOLLAR is not living in the real world.



If you have even a basic grasp of statistics, then you should realize that your initial point regarding sample-size is inaccurate.  Now, you may have a problem with the accuracy of the methodology used to get the numbers, fine, but that's entirely different than arguing that the sample-size itself is too small.  From a statistical standpoint, it's not.

And bringing in a case from 10+ years ago is not going to help your argument... that scenario was built upon the wildly fluctuating diary-returns... the PPM is designed to eliminate many of that systems flaws.

Those of you bashing the PPM are basing your conclusions upon a couple of months of data, and simply because it's showing different listening habits than you're used to seeing.  Has it occured to any of you that the reason the numbers for many stations are different now is because a lot of the diary-based data - upon which your historical perspective is based - was inaccurate?
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Chuck Tiller
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Re: Your true feelings on the diary or PPM's
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2007, 08:59:24 AM »

I agree. The PPM is far more accurate. I posted some time ago about how a somebody making $40,000 or more would not even bother to fill out a diary for the obligatory five or ten bucks(or whatever small amount it is.) It;'s not worth it. With the PPM, all you have to do, is have it in your possession.
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DavidEduardo
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Re: Your true feelings on the diary or PPM's
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2007, 10:33:28 AM »

I agree. The PPM is far more accurate. I posted some time ago about how a somebody making $40,000 or more would not even bother to fill out a diary for the obligatory five or ten bucks(or whatever small amount it is.) It;'s not worth it. With the PPM, all you have to do, is have it in your possession.

And you have to carry it every day for a certain number of hours (determined by the motion sensor) and every member of the family or domestic unit has to do the same. At present, the biggest issue is the low percentage of people carrying the meter every day, and Arbitron has started a major effort to increase compliance.

I am sure that this will be a major subject of discussion at the researcher and consultant fly-in this week at Arbitron's HQ in Columbia. I'll make sure to report back on this!
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