Finally some hard numbers on HD radio sales.

[Board Editor]

Some posts in this topic have been moved to Take It Outside.

http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=91901.0

[rbrucecarter5]

"Finally some hard numbers on HD radio sales: 330,000 sold in 2007, up from 40,000 receivers in 2006. Spin this any way you like, the reality is that these are low numbers, particularly after hundreds of millions of dollars of radio promotion provided gratis."

These numbers are meaningless unless compared as a percentage to the sales of conventional radios, consumer electronics with radios embedded, and other consumer entertainment devices. 

[kenglish]

Let's see.....

I walk in to the local Big Box store. The first thing I see and hear is a huge display for satellite Pay Radio (XM/Sirius).

I walk past it, to the car stereo department. There, I'm confronted by another huge display of sat radio stuff.

I get out my magnifying glass and go looking for a car stereo with an "HD Radio" logo somewhere....usually printed in dark grey, on a black background.

Find one. Turn it on....maybe to a really funky, new, HD2 format. Wait a minute or two to see if anyone notices. "Wait! There's another customer! I'll show off HD Radio!!"

Blip! Off goes the big red light/button. The speakers fill with SATELLITE RADIO!!

Maybe I'll watch for some mention in the local newspapers' "Radio Listings" .

[KB1OKL]

Let's see.....

I walk in to the local Big Box store. The first thing I see and hear is a huge display for satellite Pay Radio (XM/Sirius).

I walk past it, to the car stereo department. There, I'm confronted by another huge display of sat radio stuff.

I get out my magnifying glass and go looking for a car stereo with an "HD Radio" logo somewhere....usually printed in dark grey, on a black background.

Find one. Turn it on....maybe to a really funky, new, HD2 format. Wait a minute or two to see if anyone notices. "Wait! There's another customer! I'll show off HD Radio!!"

Blip! Off goes the big red light/button. The speakers fill with SATELLITE RADIO!!

Maybe I'll watch for some mention in the local newspapers' "Radio Listings" .

Well in the outside chance that they may actually sell one in the next year or two I would think that they would have to have something going through it to fool people into thinking that they work without big outside rooftop antennas.

[hipporadio]

First, I’d like to THANK the Board Editors here for maintaining “control” in the face of this pro-HD-at-all-cost gutter-assult!  PocketRadio was allegedly-BANNED here at R-I - WHY not this PRO-HD bush-leaguer for his consistent PERSONAL HARASSMENT of posters opposed to his jaded opinion.  He has offered NOTHING here but a narow-minded affront on dedicated posters on behalf of DYING HD... Then used personal invective [and bragged about such] to make his pathetic point [PocketRadio never stooped to that!]... At least Pocket posted useful "links"!  kenglish has made a definitive point!  WHERE are the HD Radios?  I can BARELY find them!  That FACT would “jive” with my earlier report that in 2007 UNDER 150,000 ACTUALLY sold in the marketplace [least I be demeaned because I "sauntered into my transmitter site" or "worked in a cubiclal".. LESS THAN HALF what iBiquity’s spokes-MBAs  reported in front of an assembly of his peers have actually SOLD!

“The Public” is clearly UNMOVED!

What say-you...?

[LinoNYC]

At least Pocket posted useful "links"!  kenglish has made a definitive point!  WHERE are the HD Radios?  I can BARELY find them!  That FACT would “jive” with my earlier report that in 2007 UNDER 150,000 ACTUALLY sold in the marketplace [least I be demeaned because I "sauntered into my transmitter site" or "worked in a cubiclal".. LESS THAN HALF what iBiquity’s spokes-MBAs  reported in front of an assembly of his peers have actually SOLD!
“The Public” is clearly UNMOVED!
What say-you...?

At least Pocket posted useful "links"!

-"useful links" = blogs of other naysayers, never anything else.  He currently plays at DelColliano's board...along with "the Man From Manasota Key".

kenglish has made a definitive point!  WHERE are the HD Radios?  I can BARELY find them!  That FACT would “jive” with my earlier report that in 2007 UNDER 150,000 ACTUALLY sold in the marketplace

I see, you use the "opinions" of another naysayer as "proof" of the veracity in your "opinions".

One mo' time: Blogs are not proof. Opinions are not facts.

Lino

[Tom Wells]

At least Pocket posted useful "links"!  kenglish has made a definitive point!  WHERE are the HD Radios?  I can BARELY find them!  That FACT would “jive” with my earlier report that in 2007 UNDER 150,000 ACTUALLY sold in the marketplace [least I be demeaned because I "sauntered into my transmitter site" or "worked in a cubiclal".. LESS THAN HALF what iBiquity’s spokes-MBAs  reported in front of an assembly of his peers have actually SOLD!
“The Public” is clearly UNMOVED!
What say-you...?

At least Pocket posted useful "links"!

-"useful links" = blogs of other naysayers, never anything else.  He currently plays at DelColliano's board...along with "the Man From Manasota Key".

kenglish has made a definitive point!  WHERE are the HD Radios?  I can BARELY find them!  That FACT would “jive” with my earlier report that in 2007 UNDER 150,000 ACTUALLY sold in the marketplace

I see, you use the "opinions" of another naysayer as "proof" of the veracity in your "opinions".

One mo' time: Blogs are not proof. Opinions are not facts.

Lino

Neither are snapshots of a spectrum analyzer which does not show the accumulated spectral distribution over the standard defined measurement period.

By the way, why doesn't ibiquity have a director of damage-control or something to refute the "wild claims" and "opinions"?

I'm sure they appreciate those of you who do try to make the best possible presentation  on their position.

Those of us who find various faults to pick with HD generally do so out of love for the medium, the technology, and the desire to preserve the best possible
service in the manner we have enjoyed since the inception of radio.

I accept that NYC and its environs has a perhaps one of the, if not THE most challenging, difficult RF environments to be found anywhere.
Whether that justifies changing radio everywhere else in the country is debatable.
I have long thought core-urban dwellers have needed central RF distribution systems inside buildings in the same way RF is provided in the Lincoln and Holland tunnels.  The problem is two-fold.  Signal attenuation could be dealt with, but modern electronic design with discontinuous current devices added to the picture is what has precipitated the noise problem.  Shouldn't the NAB have gone after requiring meaningful compliance with pt 15 unintentional radiator rules?

The FCC has the power to stop importation and/or US manufacture of the products you and all urban dwellers suffer from.
Bad engineering is bad engineering.  A REAL rheostat generates NO NOISE whatsoever. All the "loss" becomes heat, not a "right angle turn" of the waveform,
which generates RF byproducts over a very wide spectrum.  Even a triac or SCR circuit can be built with proper bypassing, in a METAL case, which would satisfy pt 15 rules.  It is becoming evident, at least for AM, that the same issues which are interfering with analog reception, are not overcome by
a signal which is basically 100% all of the time, rather than variable.  A wideband wired-radio distrubution in urban buildings is not so farfetched.
I suspect those who want decent TV in NYC use cable.  Such difficult RF environments need special treatment and measures.
To ask everyone, everywhere else to lower their expectations for radio is hardly acceptable.

Those who are "on the bandwagon" really ought to get a check from ibiquity for their promotional assistance.

[LinoNYC]

quote author=Tom Wells

By the way, why doesn't ibiquity have a director of damage-control or something to refute the "wild claims" and "opinions"?

_Probably two reasons; these hobby boards attract only the tiniest minority of the public and there hasn't been any public outcry over this system.

I'm sure they appreciate those of you who do try to make the best possible presentation  on their position.
 

A rather snide remark.

Those of us who find various faults to pick with HD generally do so out of love for the medium, the technology, and the desire to preserve the best possible
service in the manner we have enjoyed since the inception of radio.

AM is fighting for it's future, I grew up with high quality wideband AM that sounded often better than FM, the average person didn't and the last two generations are not interested in it.  The audio is the reason.

I accept that NYC and its environs has a perhaps one of the, if not THE most challenging, difficult RF environments to be found anywhere.
Whether that justifies changing radio everywhere else in the country is debatable.

NO station is forced to adopt this system  It was AM broadcasters who demanded via the NAB their inclusion in what was originally envisioned as an FM-only project.


I have long thought core-urban dwellers have needed central RF distribution systems inside buildings in the same way RF is provided in the Lincoln and Holland tunnels. 

The problem with this concept is that residential buildings are not Faraday cages, a tunnel is after the first 50 or so feet.  The "leaky conductor" that works so well there would find it's signal clashing with OTA. our building has this problem with it's CATV system and it badly damages some channels. 

Most people put up with FM multipath unless it gets horrendous but even on the WPLJ aircheck that I posted you can certainly hear how after the first 6 sec the sound clears.  No point in reiterating the issues with AM.


The problem is two-fold.  Signal attenuation could be dealt with, but modern electronic design with discontinuous current devices added to the picture is what has precipitated the noise problem.  Shouldn't the NAB have gone after requiring meaningful compliance with pt 15 unintentional radiator rules?

Maybe so, but with ever fewer people listening to AM radio there hasn't been a public outcry and the NAB would have stiff opposition from other business and importers of this noisy junk.


Bad engineering is bad engineering.  A REAL rheostat generates NO NOISE whatsoever. All the "loss" becomes heat, not a "right angle turn" of the waveform,
which generates RF byproducts over a very wide spectrum.

You can't be proposing a return to rheostats!  I'am old enough to remember the waning day of their use in Broadway houses. Six or more piano boards (size of an upright piano) each with 6-8 fully loaded 6-10-14 kw dimmers and their smaller preset boards, many of the cores showing color. An enoumous waste of energy a sweltering place to work. Much better are the autotransformers and mag-amps.

I've worked on over 170 productions, almost all used scr dimmers some of these shows were broadcast via WNCN radio and/or PBS tv, there was never any problem with professional light control equipment.

I suspect those who want decent TV in NYC use cable.  Such difficult RF environments need special treatment and measures.
To ask everyone, everywhere else to lower their expectations for radio is hardly acceptable.

Again, no one is forced to use the iboc system.

Those who are "on the bandwagon" really ought to get a check from ibiquity for their promotional assistance.

That's insulting.  I'am personally not on anybody's "bandwagon" I have a low opinion of businessmen and their republican puppets.

If you want to assign blame for the state of AM radio..blame the public that has deserted it.  IBOC is a tool offered to an industry in decline. It'll probably fail and the churches, preachers and other hucksters will then overtake your's (and mine) beloved medium.

Lino

[Tom Wells]

Please don't paint me as snide or insulting, we're trying to have a conversation without name calling, insinuation or stooping to
immature language.  I agree rheostats in commercial applications are more efficient, but in homes, 3 way lamps are a far better solution than
ruining AM reception.
There are places in industrial controls where I sure-nuff do support a return to rheostats, as I am tired of seeing machines lose production time because some over-complicated  motor drive controller decides to die.  One big power supply, some wires and a dozen rheostats has far less to fail than several thousand surface mount components, many of them at the very limits of their ratings.
Of course it's cheap in production, but the reverse side of the issue is all the down time such complex equipment will see over the
life of the product.

OK, I used "on the bandwagon" to mean "supporters of the new technology".
I don't think you're really out there waving an ibiquity banner.
I still think they owe you and others money or at least a letter of thanks for being an ardent promoter of this new tech.


If audio quality is the reason people are deserting AM, then every step the AM stations have taken technically over the last
20 years has been in the wrong direction. 

Back in the late 20's stations and radio stores held "Burn the Bloopers" events, where crummy cheap radios that went into oscillation were
traded in for a few bucks toward a new superhet.   The trade-ins were literally burned in a pile.
AM stations and stores now need "mash the mumblers" events where narrowband AMs are smashed and you get a coupon for $ off
a wideband radio that sounds as well as you and I know it could.

[KB1OKL]

At least Pocket posted useful "links"!  kenglish has made a definitive point!  WHERE are the HD Radios?  I can BARELY find them!  That FACT would “jive” with my earlier report that in 2007 UNDER 150,000 ACTUALLY sold in the marketplace [least I be demeaned because I "sauntered into my transmitter site" or "worked in a cubiclal".. LESS THAN HALF what iBiquity’s spokes-MBAs  reported in front of an assembly of his peers have actually SOLD!
“The Public” is clearly UNMOVED!
What say-you...?

At least Pocket posted useful "links"!

-"useful links" = blogs of other naysayers, never anything else.  He currently plays at DelColliano's board...along with "the Man From Manasota Key".

kenglish has made a definitive point!  WHERE are the HD Radios?  I can BARELY find them!  That FACT would “jive” with my earlier report that in 2007 UNDER 150,000 ACTUALLY sold in the marketplace

I see, you use the "opinions" of another naysayer as "proof" of the veracity in your "opinions".

One mo' time: Blogs are not proof. Opinions are not facts.

Lino

Blogs may not be facts but... they are very influential in politics,  and are becoming more so in radio every day. Don't let them sneak up and bite you on the you know what. I dare say what you read in blogs becomes true later on for the most part.
Pocketradio and DR. Z from Manasota Key have some very useful and articulate things to say, I guess you just don't happen to agree with them, I do, maybe you don't take the time to read them and think about them.
Manasota actually writes some of the funniest stuff I've read, I would imagine you don't like John Gorman either. I guess you have to appreciate good sarcasm to like these guy's writing style.