WiMax the best way for broadcasters to get their (HD) programming into cars?

[DavidEduardo]

So a Salt Lake AM-FM has flipped the order in which it does its legal TOH breaks from AM-FM to FM-AM and that's supposed to make the case, that the only thing which will "save" AM is IBOC?  Pardon me, but B-F-D.  Neither this anecdote nor all the pedantic Arbitron and BIA number-spinning anyone can concoct will obscure the obvious truth: that if anything "is on life support" with no prospects but "certain death the instant the ventilator is switched off," it's IBOC, not AM radio. 

I made no reference to HD. You have such an obsession with HD that you are reading it into discussions that don't even mention it.

My point is that, time and again, when traditional news talkers are moved to FM or simulcast with FM, the 25-54 numbers shoot up considerably. This, to me, is proof that AM is not viable no matter how good the programming if listeners under 40 or 45 are desired. FM reaches two generations who think that AM sounds bad or who do not even know AM exists.

Again, this has nothing to do with HD. As I have said, HD may help AM, but the band may well be beyond salvation.

Hello?  The entire AM IBOC universe consists of 241 US AM stations, all of which are owned by iBiquity investors with the exception of about two dozen,

There are less than 250 viable AMs in the top 100 markets. Almost all of them are HD. That's all that are needed.

Given the choices for music consumers and the incredible failure of corporate radio to respond meaningfully to current trends, I think that - far from being the near-term casualty - AM radio may well be the "last man standing" in broadcasting as music distribution choices continue their proliferation.

The slow ratings and PUR declines of the last 20 years is mostly due to the ageing of AM and that band's inability to replace ageing listeners with ones under 55. FM is much more stable; AM is sure not someplace I would invest my money.

[Savage]

Well, let's see now.  Is this an HD radio board or an audiophile's techie board?  Seems like it's the former.

The subject under debate was whether HD provides "hope for AM" because it allegedly provides "better audio quality."   HD proponents have endlessly chanted that digital is the "only" answer because of some supposed massive rejection of AM over "sound quality."  You have echoed this sentiment numerous times in the past.

So are you abandoning this argument now?

Oh, wait. I see it now in your third 'graph, where you again declare you were not talking about HD, but then assert the point you claim you weren't making: "Again, this has nothing to do with HD.  As I have said, HD may help AM, but the band may well be beyond salvation." 

The other points I made about the state of HD-AM are unchallenged.  Just for the record....

[Savage]

I forgot: yes, you are correct that the major AM signals in major markets represent the biggest chunk of listening to the band on an industry-wide basis.  And it is true that most of those signals, being owned by the big groups who comprise iBiquity investment, are transmitting HD-AM, at least during the day.

And their audience size would be totally unaffected if every single one of them permanently turned off their HD exciters tomorrow.  NOBODY is listening to HD-AM Radio.  NOBODY cares about HD-AM or is even aware of it.

So the argument that IBOC offers "the only hope" for AM is totally unsupportable.

[SUPERCASTER]

I forgot: yes, you are correct that the major AM signals in major markets represent the biggest chunk of listening to the band on an industry-wide basis.  And it is true that most of those signals, being owned by the big groups who comprise iBiquity investment, are transmitting HD-AM, at least during the day.

And their audience size would be totally unaffected if every single one of them permanently turned off their HD exciters tomorrow.  NOBODY is listening to HD-AM Radio.  NOBODY cares about HD-AM or is even aware of it.

So the argument that IBOC offers "the only hope" for AM is totally unsupportable.

Agreed. AM or FM HD radio is doing nothing but cluttering the broadcast bands with powerful, totally unnecessary, nasty duel adjacent channel hiss.

Here is a thought, Savage. Since there are now very strong new HD radio signals deliberately co-located at HD stations, doesn't that set a new, much higher adjacent channel interference limit?
HD radio de facto supercedes all former adjacent channel protections for stations broadcasting the strong adjacent channel HD hiss.
Perhaps you could apply for a power increase based on the fact that former adjacent channel protections no longer exist.

[Dighton Rockhead]

Bob:

My interpretation of the PRO-side's 'only hope' argument is that it's just a variation of the 'it's what we have' argument.  Somehow, when one of these 'bobsey twin' arguments pops up...the other is usually not far behind.

In fairness though, they ARE right in that the infastructure / receiver availability for HD AM is further along than competing digital audio delivery technologies.

I happen to like FMeXtra.   How many receivers available?...Only one that I know of, and even that's on a limited availability basis.   How many stations running it?...Just a handful that I'm aware of......and US development seems to have stalled.

CAM-D?...No stations running it that I'm aware of, and no infastructure and no receivers, except perhaps for a handful of prototypes that might exist.

DRM?...Well, the Europeans seem to be facing some of the same implementation / adoption issues that the Alliance here is experiencing with IBOC.  When the Europeans get their act together, perhaps the North American invasion can start......but not today.

WiMax?......Now THERE's something with the potential to have REAL LEGS.  I happen to think it has the potential to leap-frog over the air HD.  This, of course depends on how quickly the infastructure can be built out, and how affordable it can be offered to consumers.  To me, the marketplace has proven time without number that the public WILL pay for services they deem to have value and utility in thier lives......but it's not ready TODAY.

Until one of the alternatives takes off, we may have to suffer along with the PRO-side's 'bobsey twin' arguments...

[LinoNYC]

I forgot: yes, you are correct that the major AM signals in major markets represent the biggest chunk of listening to the band on an industry-wide basis.  And it is true that most of those signals, being owned by the big groups who comprise iBiquity investment, are transmitting HD-AM, at least during the day.

And their audience size would be totally unaffected if every single one of them permanently turned off their HD exciters tomorrow.  NOBODY is listening to HD-AM Radio.  NOBODY cares about HD-AM or is even aware of it.

So the argument that IBOC offers "the only hope" for AM is totally unsupportable.

Nationwide, AM radio's medians are all above 50, most well above.

The reason AM lost younger listeners 30+ years ago was sound quality.

AM radio today has the same (albeit smaller) audience as it had 40 years ago.

Once again, here in market #1 all but one of the sub-50K AM's are now religion, ethnic or leased.

Three of the 50K's are now vanity. These include the once legendary WNEW and WHN as well as WQXR.

None of the above ever get above a point-0 something in ratings, most get nothing at all.


Enough self-serving fantasy. The fact that you and many other operators have found a way to short-circuit the process of actually serving an audience by simply selling chunks of your airtime to whomever does not change the facts.

AM is dying, it's sound quality that's killing it,  at this point iboc is the only/best hope to turn things around.

Quoting from your #60 reply: We all need to think in terms of what the listeners want.  You know, "listen to our listeners," instead of galloping ahead with completely unwarranted assumptions?

In the context of your station, that is an ironic statement.

Lino

[Savage]

And once again you publicly prove that you are totally incapable of defending the "merits," such as they are, of HD-AM without levelling personal attacks at those with whom you disagree.  You have never, occasionally or even once, made anything resembling a plausible case that HD will cure the problems you allege for AM radio. 

In fact, over five years of experimental operation of HD-AM - including now about 6 months of 24-hour operation - prove that IBOC will NOT provide a solution.  All it's doing is junking up the band with intolerable levels of noise and driving listeners away FASTER.  Nobody is installing the thing, nobody's listening, and nobody's buying the radios.  NOBODY CARES.  If they did, the WOR you denigrate so arrogantly would have been magically lifted from the alleged slough of "vanity" programming thanks to the magic of HD-AM which the station has programmed - and promoted - since the inception of IBOC.  If HD-AM is the wonderful solution you insist it is, where are the HD ratings success stories?  (Name ONE attributable to IBOC.)

Go ahead and repetitively spew your iBiquity talking points.  HD-AM continues to massively stiff in the marketplace.  Nobody wants it except for a self-interested few.  Looks like just about all of them post here.

[LinoNYC]

And once again you publicly prove that you are totally incapable of defending the "merits," such as they are, of HD-AM without levelling personal attacks at those with whom you disagree.  You have never, occasionally or even once, made anything resembling a plausible case that HD will cure the problems you allege for AM radio.

On the contrary, that's all I, and others here have been doing. 

Instead of discussing the technical issues and implementation we've been derailed by stupid or self-serving diatribes.

As for " levelling personal attacks at those with whom you disagree" please, that's been you stock-and-trade here.

I guess you don't see the irony in the quote I mentioned in my previous post. Coming here lecturing people on programming is really bizarre.

In fact, over five years of experimental operation of HD-AM - including now about 6 months of 24-hour operation - prove that IBOC will NOT provide a solution

As allways you purposely ignore the fact that up untill now, only a few specialty radios have been available.

You can wish and hope all you like, but untill we have iboc embedded in the common radios that consumers actually buy, we won't have a verdict on AM iboc. That process will begin this year with the next generation of decoder chips, and it will take atleast 6 years for adequate market penetration.

All it's doing is junking up the band with intolerable levels of noise and driving listeners away FASTER.

Another assertion that you and the others make routinely. Got any hard, authoritative numbers on that?  So far it appears that AM iboc has neither hurt nor helped AM.

Given that we are "almost six months" into 24hr AM iboc, where is all that public outrage?

NOBODY CARES.  If they did, the WOR you denigrate so arrogantly would have been magically lifted from the alleged slough of "vanity" programming thanks to the magic of HD-AM which the station has programmed - and promoted - since the inception of IBOC.

All that snow up there must be getting to you, nobody mentioned WOR in any context. To refresh your memory, the 50K vanities are: WEPN(WHN) WBBR (WNEW) and WQEW -radio Disney.

Go ahead and repetitively spew your iBiquity talking points.  HD-AM continues to massively stiff in the marketplace.  Nobody wants it except for a self-interested few.  Looks like just about all of them post here.

My "talking points"  are my own experiences, I don't give a damn about ibiquity.
I've used the system daily since Nov 2006, it works well for FM reasonably well for AM (1 of the seven stations is not reliable, WCBS).

Here comes more "doom and gloom" if you add together the advancing age of AM listeners, their declining numbers and near zero listenership under 45, along with the slow migration of AM's only viable formats to FM, it becomes plain that the band will be a very different and grim place in ten years if nothing is done.

AM iboc works. It will truncate coverage but it will provide the tools to prevent it's complete elimination or abandonment to whoring.

Lino

[vsa]

I forgot: yes, you are correct that the major AM signals in major markets represent the biggest chunk of listening to the band on an industry-wide basis.  And it is true that most of those signals, being owned by the big groups who comprise iBiquity investment, are transmitting HD-AM, at least during the day.

And their audience size would be totally unaffected if every single one of them permanently turned off their HD exciters tomorrow.  NOBODY is listening to HD-AM Radio.  NOBODY cares about HD-AM or is even aware of it.

So the argument that IBOC offers "the only hope" for AM is totally unsupportable.

...The reason AM lost younger listeners 30+ years ago was sound quality...



Lino

Sound quality was only part of the reason for AM's fall from favor among the young. Heavy spotloads contributed greatly.

In Los Angeles, as a teenager in the 1960's, I discovered the likes of Judy Collins and Joan Baez weeknight's at 9 during the folk music hour on KRHM (now KIIS-FM). Tom Donohue's KPPC-FM (now KROQ) then came along with an awesome progressive rock format. Most of the crew moved over to KMET and the rest is history. Meanwhile, AM radio rolled on with extremely heavy spotloads while being completely oblivious to an emerging revolution in music and radio. I would have listened to it on shortwave if it had been neccessary. By the time some AMers caught on it was too late. Perceptions had changed and became permanent.

For older adults, there were better choices with much lighter spotloads. The AM dial had one beatutiful music format during the 60's and 70's while the FM dial had three, four or more at times - almost all with better full-market signals than the AM which had been number one rated in L-A until around 1970.

The big AM signals gravitated to news, talk and full-service formats which could better support the already heavy spotloads.

FM eventually won the music audiences thanks lighter spotloads, better choice of music availability, more strong full market signals and better audio quality with less interference.

HD AM Radio only partially solves an audio quality problem over short distances only. All of the other problems remain - the chief one being perceptions of what's NOT on the AM dial. In other words, not much worth listening to, unless you love spots, infomercials, Korean radio, weak signals, etc.

[Chuck]

Sound quality was only part of the reason for AM's fall from favor among the young. Heavy spot-loads contributed greatly.

I've always appreciated good quality audio, but that is not why I started listening to FM.  In fact my first FM car radio was just a converter that played through the factory AM radio in my '66 Mustang.  If anything, it sounded worst than reception on AM. 

The reason I wanted FM (and was willing to pay the equivalent of about $300 of today’s dollars for it) was there were FM stations that played the music I wanted to hear without a ten minute break for commercials after every two or three songs.  Some FM stations only had a couple of stop sets per hour.  Four was more normal, but those only lasted a minute or two, unless they were doing news or weather.  They didn't get in the way of what I wanted to hear.  Today it is possible to listen to a major market station for 10-15 minutes and not be really sure what its music format is. It is all spots and liners.  I don't have the patience for that, so more of the than not, I choose to push the XM button, play a CD or listen to some mp3's.  I suspect that I’m not alone.  I think there is a lesson to be learned from radio’s past failures.

I know someone will chime in and say, "...but radios is a business."  Fair enough.  I'm all for making a profit, but there is a point where the profit making ability diminishes the worth of the over-all product.  Somewhere there is a happy balance.  With some notable exceptions, I think radio has tipped the scale in the wrong direction.   

Meanwhile, AM radio rolled on with extremely heavy spotloads while being completely oblivious to an emerging revolution in music and radio. I would have listened to it on shortwave if it had been neccessary.

Actually, in the 1960's, I remember listening to "British Rock" on short-wave.  It was the only place you could hear it. Sound quality was fairly abysmal, but the content wasn't.  I know most of the kids in my high school did not have a short-wave radio or a tape recorder, but several did.  Those of us who had them listened, swapped tapes and found out that we were able to "predict" what was going to be a hot hit here the USA.   It wasn't as easy as file sharing mp3's, but the concept was the same.

HD AM Radio only partially solves an audio quality problem over short distances only. All of the other problems remain - the chief one being perceptions of what's NOT on the AM dial. In other words, not much worth listening to, unless you love spots, infomercials, Korean radio, weak signals, etc.

I find it very hard to believe that someone with a little creativity can’t come up with a format that would work on AM that would attract the under 35 market.  Sports programming comes to mind as an easy solution.  Most males from high school to well beyond are interested.  So are some women.  I believe "The Ticket" in Dallas does reasonably well with their sports-talk format on AM.  Sure, it is not “Number 1” but I think they are making money while providing something people actually want to listen to.

Since one of AM's strong points is the ability to sound good on human voice, how about comedy inspired radio?  Most morning shows are mostly talk using locker room humor.  They occasionally play music.  Maybe someone could build on that idea.  It is also important to note that you do not have to be the number one station in a market to make a decent living.  It is OK to be someone's second choice radio station.  Most car radios have lots of push-buttons.  You want to be one of them.

As long as radio continues to be run by someone whose middle name is "Venture Capital," the only thing that will matter is making a profit.  Making money is their entire purpose in life and their name says it all.  Maybe after they all give up and go away, some stations will be available for people with a passion for broadcasting.  I hope there is something left to be passionate over. 

As it stands, it is hard to understand why anyone, regardless of the age group, would seriously listen to what is on most of AM.  Putting the "Colon Blow" program on the air in glorious HD is not going to fix the problem.  On the other hand, I know of some AM operators who seem to be making a good living by running this kind of stuff.  Perhaps you have to first define what you want out of life.  Maybe the rest will follow.